Give me your definition then

[DaveyBoy]

lol sorry

[LazyJim]

no problem

and I am still interested in your meaning of the D word?

*edit...*
And I hope you got my point about saying I made those sites and then saying I didn't design them, was not contradicting myself, because I concider make and design different.

[DaveyBoy]

yeah i understand what you mean to an extent.

My meaning of the D-word, is as i mentioned in another post, a mixture of both. Web designing does incorporate elements of graphic design, which like you said it making sure the text is in the right place, and that there is the aesthetics element too, the graphics and everything. Then there is the part of designing the navigation, making the site easy to navigate and to use etc.

Cross browser compatibility etc., i don't really consider this a part of the design process at all, its certainly in the job description of a web designer, but at the same time i don't think of it as being part of the 'design' of the site.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by DaveyBoy

whats this? another lazyjim topic discussing what web design actually is! Well, i'll be damned!

DaveyBoy, nobody is flaming anybody in my forum. It makes me look like a horse's behind.

Some good points:

Originally Posted by Suspicious

Everybody's view and definition is different.

Originally Posted by LazyJim

I'm not saying everyone who calls themself a designer should do it my way.

Now, Jim defines it this way:

Originally Posted by LazyJim

Verb1 - To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect.
Verb2 - To draw a decortive pattern.
Noun1 - A plan; a project.
Noun2 - An ornamental pattern.
Noun3 - A graphic representation, especially a detailed plan for construction or manufacture.

Now, here's the bombshell: I am a web designer.

Do I code? No. Do I do graphics? Nope. I don't even have Photoshop.

But my bank account says that I'm a web designer. I even have a portfolio.

The only requirement for me to be a web designer is that I get paid to design websites.

Defintions are subjective, but my bank balance isn't.

I tend to do the same thing Jim does. I define "SEO" in way one. But the market defines it in a much broader sense.

We could go so far as to say that the guy who puts up a 2 minute site is a web design, because he did, in fact, design some part of something which is on the web.

Or we could define it in a more narrow sense.

The thing to remember is, we don't define terms - the actual usage of terms defines terms.

I personally put web design way, way, way down the food chain. What good is a website if it doesn't generate profits? There are tons of great looking websites which are less than profitable. Design is second to marketing strategy.

[DaveyBoy]

sorry for the 'flame' but i think 3 seperate topics basically about the same thing is taking it too far.

By the way, i don't think ur a web designer. You run a web design company.

[LazyJim]

That bit in red is a point I was thinking about and was going to start talking about. However, you've stated it in one single sentance which does the job nicely, I would have been rambling on about it, because I never have been good at saying what I want to say, sometimes because I don't really know what I want to say.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by DaveyBoy

By the way, i don't think ur a web designer. You run a web design company.

But I decide the colors - does that not count? I also indicate where and what type of navigation I want - doesn't that count?

[DaveyBoy]

lol you're a bit part in the whole operation, admit it jonny boy

[John Scott]

Ok, I admit it.

[hatchet]

I liken web designers to architects. With that - there are many different types of designers. Whole project designers (architects) - but they can't do much without interior designers. The architects design the main building blocks of the structure... or massing. They give that to the engineer (developer) who makes it stand up or work. Then the interior designer makes it look pretty.

Therefore...
Architect = Client
Engineer = Developer
Interior Designer = Web Designer (graphics)

Of course this can go one step further in construction. Where the architect is more of an extension of the client or owner.

[LazyJim]

DaveyBoy - Sorry about the "3 topics about the same thing", they weren't meant to be about the same thing, but each time poeple started talking about somethings slightly different and I sort of thought of another way I should have started the topic.

Like I said I'm not that good and saying what I want to say, and the differences in our opinions of design didn't help anyone understand me.

Hatchet - another good analogy to the real world of design.
I'd like to point out that I am not in the real world of design yet.

[LazyJim]

Originally Posted by DaveyBoy

...
My meaning of the D-word, is as i mentioned in another post, a mixture of both. Web designing does incorporate elements of graphic design, which like you said it making sure the text is in the right place, and that there is the aesthetics element too, the graphics and everything. Then there is the part of designing the navigation, making the site easy to navigate and to use etc.

The following shows some of the difference in my idea of design, (I'm not saying you don't do these things, but you haven't mentioned them explicitly if at all)...

I consider it important to think about the goal of the site. (Not just 'make money' that's the business purpose. The site's purpose is often the role that the site must play, e.g. provide info about the company and a way contact them.)
To decide who's going to use the site.
To set out requirements for the functions of the site and other things (maybe you client is the U.S. government and requires you to comply with section 50.
To list the constraints, these can come from the business/client and from you analysis.
Then I would go about the ideas knowing that I'm heading in the right direction rather than just following my heart if you like.

This is not a lecture in how you should do you job, but if you see something you've been neglecting, you may decide to start thinking about it more carefully in the future. - I'm not trying to force my way upon you, I'm just sharing part of what years of study in design (off the web) has taught me, for anyone that cares.

Originally Posted by DaveyBoy

...Cross browser compatibility etc., i don't really consider this a part of the design process at all, its certainly in the job description of a web designer, but at the same time i don't think of it as being part of the 'design' of the site.

Where cross-browser fits in, is the requirements specification. You have to decide which browsers should be considered, and where you will make sacrifices for older browsers.

I'm not saying anyone in particular thinks design is just making things look pretty, but a lot of people do think so.
You may understand there's a whole lot more to it.
I don't think you can get round to the aesthetics until you have specified how important they are in the given project.

[LazyJim]

The way I've been going on, I probably sound like some mad perfectionist, but you should all know when it comes to actual effort, I'm lazy.

[DaveyBoy]

Originally Posted by LazyJim

The following shows some of the difference in my idea of design, (I'm not saying you don't do these things, but you haven't mentioned them explicitly if at all)...

The reason i ain't mentioned them is because i don't see it as part of the actual design process. Them factors you mention are, to me, research which occurs before the design process even begins. I agree these are very important to getting the right target audience etc. but i don't consider it design.

[LazyJim]

Right now we're getting somewhere!

[LazyJim]

I know what you mean but throughout education each pupil has learned about that part of projects, and done the whole lot themselves. Thats probably why I ususally think of it all being included in the scope of design.

*edit* The common phrase "I know what you mean" can never really be true, (unless perhaps I was Spock and did a Vulcan mind meld on you!), but I do think I know what you mean.

[DaveyBoy]

yeah its all part of the main project that i'm undertaking, but i see it as a series of processes - research, design, redesign (if app.) then publish.

All these factors come together to make me whatever i am.

[LazyJim]

cool, then I concider you to be designer, probably with differences in the processes because we're different people brought up differently, but that's close enough for me.

Now what about the people out there, in the world, that DON'T do all these important parts of the project, yet sell web sites for extortionate prices?

(I don't mean the people that are part of a whole project team where the whole lot would get done anyway. I mean those that claim to get the whole job done when in fact the've neglected to reasearch and all the rest? The "two minute" sort.)

As a bussiness advisor said to me when I mentioned I was thinking of going into Web Design:

Depends what sort you are, we get a lot of people saying that who just got a computer for Christmas the other month and found they could use Word and put a page on the web.

[DaveyBoy]

ah you mean the kind of designer like this :

http://www.webdotgate.com

or

http://www.bobatdesigns.co.uk

[LazyJim]

http://www.bobatdesigns.co.uk sounds like concider only the graphics, novelty effects with JavaScript/flash, and SEO.
Like "make-overs" on people - but I bet even they get more thought and effort!

http://www.webdotgate.com are offline - "...reorganizing our company so we are committed to our customers..."
Should have thought of that before you started! haha