Problems in the Web Design Industry - Page 2

ShadowMarketer · 09-22-2007, 12:34 PM

I'm afraid I disagree - I don't think the web design industry is faltering at all. Sure, there are those "design contests" where people go and get a fully coded website design, but the designers who take part in those companies are new designers who are still trying to learn, and the clients who are requesting designs from them are those who can't afford quality design.

View it as a sort of intro-web design industry, seperate from the real one. I've never had more web design gigs than I do right now, and I see that increasing in the near future.

Of course if you focus on the negative things, then sure, then idustry will look like it's faltering. But you have to look at the positives as well, which far outweigh the negatives. For example, the boom of the internet means that there's nowhere for the industry to go up, because as so many more people are getting into marketing on the internet, that creates so many more clients for those of us who provide those designs.

Web design is a great place to be right now, because we are providing what people need. If you are seeing less clients, then maybe it's time to stop blaming it on those cheap designers, and start questioning why potential clients are selecting someone else's services over yours, because I know that I've had no trouble finding jobs lately.

Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree!

scorpionagency · 09-22-2007, 12:54 PM

ShadowMarketer - While in retrospect of your side of the coin I tend to agree with you whole heartedly, Let's not forget about all the the clients we BOTH get (I'm sure you do too) that demand 3-5 Mock-ups of there website prior to purchase or contracting.

Granted, it's a $3,000.00 Project (Once its contracted & started). However the time spent on those 3-5 mock-ups just knocked it down to a $1,000.00 - $2,000.00 project (If you value your time).

Not to mention that once you embark on Mock-ups, you might as well expect the relentless Tweaking & Modifying requests (Before they decide to go with you).

Myself, I turn down more projects like that than I can count. I too have a client base as do you.

Positive sides? sure there are allot

Negative sides? Yes, theres allot of those too.

The point of the matter is that, the more Mock-up based designers that sprout up out there, the more we are confronted with the demanding potential client that was trained by a mock-up designer to be that way.

Sure, we can retrain them.... Are you going to invest the extra time arguing & retraining the mislead Potentials that have reached a point of stubbornness due to past experiences?

In my personal experiences with this type of client it only leads to bad Public Relations & headaches down the road. All thanks to the Original designer that taught them it was ok to be that way.

Am I stuck on negatives that are hurting my business? No, because as I said, I turn all those potential clients away (Once they show to be unreasonable) & it doesn't effect me one bit.

Am i positively Influenced? Yes, I have a high repeat / referral rate with satisfied clients. I think thats enough to keep anyone motivated.

Again, you make good points, However you should never totally disguard the flip side of the coin in any equation, just like you should Never underestimate an opponent.

I did like your advise though.

businessservicesuk · 09-22-2007, 01:04 PM

On the contrary it is nice to read some well balanced opinions. And you are both right there are always two sides to every story.

From my own point of view I think the standard of websites across the board are generally poor and only when, if ever, the industry is regulated will standards improve. I have many friends in the web industry who both agree and disagree with my feelings on the subject.

I read an amusing article the other day where it said teenagers were packing in McDonald's to become web designers and SEO experts. There is still a lot of naiveness in regards to online businesses, I guess in 15 years time the small time poor operators will have moved onto the next best thing, leaving behind the quality operators.

scorpionagency · 09-22-2007, 01:14 PM

Thats funny you say that businessservicesuk, I can't even count how many self proclaimed website designers I have talked to that purchased Dream Weaver & now think they are ready for business.

The funniest ones are the teenagers using the trial version of Dream Weaver & saying it.

While Adobe's DW software was designed as a tool to aid the professional designer & to make their life a little easier. These newbies are finding the trial as a career move opportunity.

Granted, we all have to start somewhere, However The starting with software like DW rather than taking the time to learn the fundamentals of Hand Coding first is simply a set up for failure.

The Ironic thing about all this is that a few of them did openly admit that their last job was in fast food (E.g. McDonald's, Taco Bell, Burger King, Long John Silvers, Etc..)...

Funny!!!!!!

ShadowMarketer · 09-22-2007, 01:23 PM

Ah, don't get me started on mock-up requests. I get a ton of e-mails that go a little something like this:

"Hello Jeffrey,

I really liked your portfolio, and am considering you heavily as the lead designer of my project. However, how can I be sure you can provide me with a quality design? I therefore request that you send me 4 or 5 different examples of what you are thinking for my website, that way I can see what you have planned for our business.

Let me know,

XYZ"

And I absolutely despise those messages. I always decline them as well, and I am now starting to tell people up front that I will not do 5 examples before they accept me. Sometimes you do 5 samples, and then they select a different designer! I agree that it's ridiculous, and that is one of the aspects of our industry that I feel is going downhill.

But like I said before, I (as well as you, as you said) have no problem finding clients who are reasonable. Also, I find that a lot of people who request mock-ups will change their minds as soon as you let them know that you will not work with them if they require sample designs.

Now that I think of it, there is another group of clients who really piss me off. I don't know if you've ever encountered this, but at least 10% of my potential clients always say something like:

"Well unfortunately I can't pay you right now, but I will be willing to offer you 10% of my company earnings blah blah blah"

Straight to the trash bin. Despite these things however, I still feel good about the direction of the business. I treat them as minor annoyances, and nothing more, that are to be dealt with accordingly.

Like you said, there are always two sides of the coin, and ignoring either of them is never a good idea.

scorpionagency · 09-22-2007, 01:51 PM

Ahh, the annoying: (I have the best Idea out there & it is sure to make millions once it catches on, If you could "Partner" with me & do the designing / Dev. work I will cut you in for a % once the money starts rolling in)... Yes I have been encountered with that one myself more times than I can count as well....

My trash Bin overflows with those.....

Too funny.... Sometimes its the small things that add humor to the day!

ShadowMarketer · 09-22-2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpionagency

Too funny.... Sometimes its the small things that add humor to the day!

Haha, couldn't agree more... if I have too many projects on the go, I'm always happy to get one of those, just so I can have a laugh

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpionagency

I can't even count how many self proclaimed website designers I have talked to that purchased Dream Weaver & now think they are ready for business.

I love those people, but even funnier are the ones who pick-up Photoshop, make a picture of a very bland and basic webpage, and try to use the "save for web" function to code it

thebeacon · 09-22-2007, 07:50 PM

Content Management Systems are going to provide standards in the web design industry. CMS's like drupal and joomla are being utilized by companies like sony, business week and many more. COntent management systems are definitely the future of web design. It is much faster, more efficient way to design websites. Most of the content management systems are search engine friendly. Also CMS like joomla will allow some one who does not know the code to easily edit website instantly. There are thousands of addons and extensions that already exist to allow anyone to have their website to be utilized for any purpose without spending time re-inventing the wheel. Content Management Systems ALL THE WAY!!!!

scorpionagency · 09-22-2007, 08:05 PM

Well, while I do agree that CMS's are a great asset to a company for easy administration & updates on the back end. They are not ALL SEF. Take Joomla for instance, I Use a Joomla CMS as my main sites Backbone.....

Even when you activate the SEF URL's pkg. they still aren't very friendly. I had to utilize other methods to help out such as Footer navigation to aid in indexing.

Revolutionary? While CMS's I do believe are becoming quite popular & will eventually become a standard, There will always be work for designers, Dev.'s, & Marketing Consultants (E.G... SEO, Direct, Etc..) to Design, Modify, Personalize, Brand, & Optimize.

The real question is, will the professional standards be minimized due to the explosion of Self proclaimed Guru's that found out about a free or trial version tool & all of a sudden decide to start up a business based on it?

thebeacon · 09-22-2007, 09:36 PM

I have to agree with you "scorpionagency" that joomla is not 100% SEO friendly out of the box. There is add on that can be installed to make it seo friendly. I am a web developed, designer...

For me to say that I can compete on any level with CMS is absolutely impossible. As I am writing this there are hundreds if not thousands of web developers, programmers designing new add ons, extensions, plug ins and improving that core components of systems like Drupal and Joomla. As far as I know Joomla is owned or financed by Google.

Developers that work on Drupal are getting infinite capital from companies like Sony to design a better CMS. Even if I had a staff of one thousand of employees working on web development I would not even come close to what is possible with Joomla and Drupal in less time.

I transfered all my websites to CMS most Drupal. It took me minutes to desing websites with Drupal that before took me months to design with just Dreamweaver.

CMS will be webs standard..... WHY? because of infinite capital from companies like Google, Sony, DELL, etc... and thousands of programmers that work day and night around the world to make it better.

Just to get a glimps of whats possible with CMS take a look at the Joomla's website and take a look at all the extensions, themes, plug-ins, that are available for FREE!!!.

Seriously you can build next Amazon.com in a week with CMS.

businessservicesuk · 09-23-2007, 12:16 AM

My site is crawling to position 1, I bet I get to number 2 before it dips....lol

http://www.google.com/search?q=busin...e7&rlz=1I7GGLJ

I upset my web designer yesterday by getting my website listed on a PR 8 homepage, without payment. The funny thing is, its a place where web designers.

Moving on, I think web designers are currently missing out in a big way.

It is common practise for someone to commission a website, after the design stage is over, in walks the self proclaimed seo experts, who charge a fortune, for very little work, apart from link building. Web designers should have noticed this years ago and set themselves up as web design optimisers. Now this really would sort the men out from the boys and send the amatuers running back to Burger King.

scorpionagency · 09-23-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebeacon

I have to agree with you "scorpionagency" that joomla is not 100% SEO friendly out of the box. There is add on that can be installed to make it seo friendly. I am a web developed, designer...

For me to say that I can compete on any level with CMS is absolutely impossible. As I am writing this there are hundreds if not thousands of web developers, programmers designing new add ons, extensions, plug ins and improving that core components of systems like Drupal and Joomla. As far as I know Joomla is owned or financed by Google.

Developers that work on Drupal are getting infinite capital from companies like Sony to design a better CMS. Even if I had a staff of one thousand of employees working on web development I would not even come close to what is possible with Joomla and Drupal in less time.

I transfered all my websites to CMS most Drupal. It took me minutes to desing websites with Drupal that before took me months to design with just Dreamweaver.

CMS will be webs standard..... WHY? because of infinite capital from companies like Google, Sony, DELL, etc... and thousands of programmers that work day and night around the world to make it better.

Just to get a glimps of whats possible with CMS take a look at the Joomla's website and take a look at all the extensions, themes, plug-ins, that are available for FREE!!!.

Seriously you can build next Amazon.com in a week with CMS.

As I mentioned before, I am a Joomla User & I have the SEF extension... When activated the extension uses a Cache (.Htaccess) to aid the SEF transition. Not only does this take up more server space for a site like mine that has 3,000+ pages, the outputted URL is still gibberish. Shorter yes, but still digits, dashes, equals, etc.... (Not my Idea of fully SEF URL's)

Joomla would require a Full Core overhaul in order to produce SEF friendly URL's like CMSMS (CMS Made Simple). The designs I did on that CMS platform were very SEF. The URL's dynamically produced are page title based (Textual).

Again, while CMS's I feel as well will become a standard, I also feel that the overnight self proclaimed Guru's will just use this as yet another reason to start there business in access of there trial version of DW. All they have to do is install / set-up / Add content / & put a few images up... Then they can call it a website design. (What a Joke)... I mention this because I have already seen them doing it.

Matter of fact, I have acquired a few clients for redesign that paid for a self proclaimed Guru's services. The hardest part in dealing with them was re-training there brain to the standards rates & procedures rather than what the self proclaimed Guru taught them. To be honest, I end up having to turn 7 out of every 10 away because they have inadvertently turned into a designers Nightmare (E.G. Nitpicking, Nickel & Dimming, Overly Tweaking, Think they can design it them self easier, Etc...).

Ok, I don't want to write a book all in one post

This is all just my opinion, but hey, what do I know....

businessservicesuk · 09-23-2007, 03:07 PM

Lets try and get back on track

What can be done to improve standards?

I am sure some of you see the poor efforts that are littering the website review sections of forums.

The amount of web designers that link build off the back of their clients.

Designer who cannot be bothered to do any tag work whatsoever

And finally a very common fault, not checking sites on all the browsers.

When you look at a lot of these issues, most of them are time saving omissions and the link building point is simply deception.

scorpionagency · 09-23-2007, 03:28 PM

Again, most of that is due to the uprising of Self proclaimed Guru's that use Dream Weaver's trial version. because they never took the time to learn hand coding & standard requirements prior to launching their new (Delusional) Web Design business, it retroactively effects the overall standards for "ALL" designers in the industry.

Possible Solutions for improvement:

Petition Adobe (And other software companies) to include watermarks on their trial versions - Thus eliminating Businesses Building off trials.
Launch an all out Joint campaign with other professional design firms to spread the word & post a "Design Standards" Form on each of their sites so that Potential clients can educate them self & be prepared.
Get over 10,000 supporting signatures from designers across the globe in support of a Media (Television) campaign to express our concerns & let the public know that we work for a living too.

They say a standard or change all starts with one person, that person having a Dream, followed by Dedication / Determination / Discipline / & Self Motivation.

I believe that anything is possible as long you, yourself believe in what you're preaching.

There is a simple 3 step rule in Politics, Business, & Formal Military alike: - 1.) Lead - 2.) Follow - 3.) Or get The Hell Out Of The Way -

As harsh as it may sound, when you sit back & think about it. It's very accurate.

I wish you all the best of luck!

businessservicesuk · 09-23-2007, 03:35 PM

I thought about setting up a website where web designers could list their services.

The idea was very simple it would list the designers qualifications, the projects they have worked on previously, their prices and finally a feedback score based on their clients feelings, a bit like ebays system.

This would be a great place for people to visit if they were looking for a designer with much more visibility as to a designers ability and costs

Maybe one day I will get time.

scorpionagency · 09-23-2007, 03:50 PM

There are thousands of sites like that out there already actually, most call them self Freelancer sites. All the same specs you mentioned & more.

While, sure it may provide the potential client with a more educated decision, However if you have seen these freelance sites you will also agree (I'm sure) that they promote under waged projects, Low design standard, mock-ups, Lowest bidder winner, etc... Even if it's inadvertently (Not meaning to) it's happening daily.

I have seen $4,000.00 projects outsourced on some of these sites to a guy in India that won it for $400.00.... Not to mention that a high majority of the under bidders never do the work, they just take the money & run & or drop the project in the middle of development because they become overwhelmed (Due to them not being qualified to begin with)

Sure, some of these sites have features in place (Along with policies) to protect from these things happening. The sad thing is that NOT 1 of these sites that I have come across is efficient in it.

Now if you were able to create & maintain (Consistently) a Client to Firm match making site (So to speak) with High standards & quality in mind... You may just have a gold mine. (It won't happen over night, but the potential is endless)

businessservicesuk · 09-24-2007, 02:05 AM

The site (idea) would not be a place where bidding for tenders took place. More a directory of designers, providing lots of useful information.

Basically it would work like this

A client want to use the services of a designer
They visit the site, find someone they want to use.
They then fill in an online form, this is then checked for relevance and forwarded to the designer.
If the designer accepts the work they inform us
After the work is completed, the client fill out a customer survey and leaves a feedback score.
We then check out the site and give our own feedback score.
An average is taken and this is listed on the site.

A system like this will give true visibility to the industry, currently their is none or very little.

scorpionagency · 09-24-2007, 10:00 AM

I saw a couple sites similar to what your talking about, However after further research I found that the owners of the site were not sending the potential clients information to the selected directory listed design firm. Instead they were sending a project proposal directly to the potential in order to secure the work for them self.

I'm sure that I am not the only one that has come across sites like this, so I suppose as long as you have something in place as reassurance to design firms, they might not assume your site is the same as the last few that tried to take them for a ride.

businessservicesuk · 09-24-2007, 10:14 AM

Rest assured this site, if I ever get round to doing it, will be run in a professional and unbiased manner.