Worth 10K?

[Johan007]

I have just taken a look and the shop itself looks like a package but these packages cost money too! Not to mention the user interfaces coding where you add delete and maintain products has to be coded. You dont expect the users to FTP!

I am really annoyed actually… I cant believe most of you don’t think its worth it and really should learn about what it takes to make a website in the real world and not in front of your hacked XP, hacked Dreamweaver, hacked photoshop and pirated copies of ftp and shopping baskets plug ins, clip art and photo disks and shared webspace!

I think it’s a poor site that needs usability changes but they have given the client what they wanted and very professionally… deal with it!

p.s sure I have had a bad today but my point is still valid.

Costs:
Cartoons
Server side product update interface (expensive)
Shopping cart (package but still at cost)
Software (from FTP to Photoshop it has to be factored maybe 10%)
Consultation time
Concept designs
Adding content

[DaveyBoy]

Feel offended you say ppl have hacked all the stuff, it took me about 2 months to save up for photoshop.

I knows its expensive to make one, still doesn't make it WORTH it when you look at it, and say like, would you pay 10k for it? The answer is no.

[Johan007]

DaveyBoy

Sorry for my generalisation but that’s how I felt at the time. I too had to save up months to get Photoshop and know how much of a commitment that is.

I am sure you have a good eye for design (seen your logo). Your designs alone for a site including the many concepts should be worth money but are you going to pay for the shopping cart from your own pocket? ... Don’t sell yourself too short you got to make living right? Do you make a living from web design...have you even covered the cost of Photoshop alone?

[DaveyBoy]

Only my second living, I don't sell myself short though when I do make money from it

[Johan007]

whoops I had to edit the post above.

btw where I work we charge $100 for a 120x60 banner (the money does not go in my pocket )

[Fusion]

I agree with the hacked comments. Web design should be a professional body, I wouldn't let some un-qualified dentist near my mouth. Should abide by regulations at least. Too many faux designers and new 'studios' set up every other day. Many don't know anything about WAI, the design process or legal requirements, scope, basic networking concepts, human-factor-principles, bottom-up approach, product selection and payment, inverted pyramid, e-commerce practices and strategies etc.

I mean, lots of people are just churning out template after template with no thought involved. Suppose thats why they are cheap.

DB I know someone who was quoted 4000 pounds for a site that detailed her translation abilities etc. Even though it was overpriced it's the whole process involved when offering pro service, i.e project scope documentation based on the assumptions of the client etc. The site wouldn't of included custom artwork, logo creation etc.

Bare in mind my friend has an appointment with Puma in June this year, in Germany to design their new site to the tune of 750 big ones. heh so 10k is cheap imo.

[Johan007]

If only I could have put forward the case as eloquently as FuSion.

[FGTH]

Web designer's don't define the budget for web projects. Clients do.

Most clients already have a set budget in mind along with the main deliverables.

As Web designers/developers, our role is to translate the client's business requirements into workable action items. We validate the feasibility of the client's goals and offer our advice to help them understand what they'll ultimately get when the project is completed and signed-off.

This ensures that the project meets client expectations in terms of scope, quality, schedule, and budget. When web design projects go over budget, the reason is due to poor communication leading to a poorly developed project plan. In project planning, you assign tasks to schedules to estimate the cost to complete the tasks accordingly.

One criticism about the website of discussion:
The store is not integrated with the rest of the site. It uses passportintl.com's shared SSL storefront. Kind of amateurish from a usability standpoint.

You can integrate turn-key solutions such as Miva Merchant that normally comes with web-hosting packages seamlessly.

For small businesses, I typically charge $75 USD per hour for custom work and $35 USD per hour for using templates.

For large corporations, my rates double.

I estimate the site has 20-30 static pages linked to an external online storefront. The charge would be $1,500-2,250 for the static pages.

Populating the store with product images, pricing, descriptions, etc... would cost around $30/item with storefront customization and configuration. With a minimum of 50 items, I would charge $1500.
(Note: The storefront would be seamlessly integrated with the rest of the website) Since it isn't, the value of the site is much less.

So, from my perspective, this website is worth $3,500-3750 USD.
If the storefron were integrated, it would be worth $4250 USD.

Hourly rates have been defined by factoring all the necessary activities such as graphic and template designs.

This is only my opinion.
Just so that people don't think I'm talking out my a$$, I've lead web project development initiatives ranging from multimillion dollar project lasting 12 months to small projects worth a few hundred dollars lasting less than a day.

[Johan007]

Nice post FGTH… did you factor in the costs of the cartoonist or would you have the skill to do that yourself in that particular style? You would have to add another 1000 depending on the artist?

I have never lead a team before but have worked on site worth 1 million British pounds in the first year and £10,000 a month after. The proposal document alone with screenshots I had to do was 300 pages and funded by the government for a private contractors where I work.

I have also charge £400 for a site with 5 static pages privately in the past.

[FGTH]

The artwork isn't all that great (for its intended purpose); but may appeal to a demographic audience of 10 years old or less, which is great if it is the target market.

However, how many 10 year olds do you know with credit cards?

Parents are the ones who purchase items for this group and I don't think thongs (listed as a product) would be for 10 year olds.

Back to the issue of charging for design work:
Charging $75/hour covers all the design and development activities for medium to large scale projects. For smaller projects (less than 20 hours), I charge appropriately by the hour for the graphic design.

The clients typically supply the copy with existing marketing assets (logos, print collateral, etc..). The web designers use these assets to design a template that is aligned with the client's existing theme. The text is just a matter of dropping what they hand you into the template.

[Fusion]

I hate templates. Are you using it as a metaphor? I don't think the illustrations or the demographic market is catering for ten year olds, I think they are targetting young mums, possibly stay at home ones. I think you answered that part yourself with reference to the thongs etc. The theme seems to evoke brady bunch ideologies, the illustrations perfectly envelop this concept; it's fun and quirky.

[LazyJim]

I can't afford PS! so I use PSP!
dreamweaver? HAHA yeah rigth - I do it all manually instead.

WindowsXP - er got me there :S

[88sahara]

I wouldn't say that it is CRAZY, a bit on the high side, but definitely 8,000-10,000. We don't know revision cycles that this site went through or the cartooning type animation, the site is definitely unique, which has value. However I think the desire to be unique came at the expense of being usable, the site could use a bit more usability.

The shared cart is way ugly, and is not way professional. This site seems like it was designed by a cartoonist that knows dreamweaver well, but not a real developer.

If I charged a client 10k for a site, there's no way I'd include a shared shopping cart solution. But that is just me.

[Fusion]

The interface of the cart you mean? Where it breaks the theme? It looks bad really. Why can't they just intergrate into a toned down version of the 'look'? Damn they should pay us lot as usability testers. But them we are all seasoned internet users, wouldn't work that.

[FGTH]

Originally Posted by FuSion

I hate templates. Are you using it as a metaphor? I don't think the illustrations or the demographic market is catering for ten year olds, I think they are targetting young mums, possibly stay at home ones. I think you answered that part yourself with reference to the thongs etc. The theme seems to evoke brady bunch ideologies, the illustrations perfectly envelop this concept; it's fun and quirky.

A template is a basic framework for the layout of a page or site; and a site can have multiple templates. The site of discussion looks to be an original template design.

Templates can be custom designed or purchased from a value added reseller and customized to meet the project requirements. How you arrive at the final template and acceptance depends on the project constraints such as budget, quality, and time. The time for conceptual design, testing, development and launch varies... this process can take several iterations or none depending on how well the designers can match the client's vision.

The site of discussion is definitely unique and from an artistic view, it's awesome.

The role of the designer (graphic) is NOT to understand or define the usability, feasibility, or business practicality of the design. This should be left to the business analyst for the project. I'm not challenging the talent or creativity of the site; but rather the feasibility of the design for its business application, which is an online clothing retail store.

The site is not an art gallery. Clients need to understand the advantages and challenges of conducting business online and offline. If this were a "Tupperware" store, then perhaps a home/bedroom setting would work; but it's not.

How many clothing stores have you visited sell clothes out of drawers? Consumers don't buy clothes out of bedrooms. Would you be comfortable buying clothes from a bedroom? Perhaps yes, but I and most people would not. Shoppers look for instant gratification and assurances that the clothes fit and look good when worn. They also look for incentives. For example, LL Bean pioneered the mail-order paradigm for clothing. Their added incentives were life-time unconditional guarantees and free shipping.

There is no assurance of quality, fit, security, price, or any guarantees whatsoever explicity or implicitly expressed visually or contextually. Compounding the challenges is the disconnected look from having a very poor ecommerce solution.

Bottom line: The site is definitely not worth $10K.

[Johan007]

Maybe not as much as 10k... if that site in question was built with a beget of $10k I am sure you can find ways to use that money constructively?

[FGTH]

Originally Posted by Johan007

Maybe not as much as 10k... if that site in question was built with a beget of $10k I am sure you can find ways to use that money constructively?

The cost of a project depends on the client's requirements, the skill sets of the project team, and the communication among the stakeholders.

My constructive criticism:

6 Ps

Proper Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.

Choose web design companies wisely.
Make sure they're well-balanced in technology, art, and business.

[LazyJim]

I like those P's!

[hajamie]

if i had 10,000 id learn to do all that myself and get a car...

[JuggoPop]

Originally Posted by FGTH

How many clothing stores have you visited sell clothes out of drawers?

Stores that sell women's under garments out of drawers... Victoria' s Secret for one.

I think the site is worth about $5,000-$6,000 after looking it over
and after reading what was said here in this thread, I still feel the same.

Lots of good points overall.