Worth 10K?

[John Scott]

Huh. $10,000 is a good starting point for web design. I know designers that design for $199 per site, but I don't see how they can feed their families....

[FGTH]

Stores that sell women's under garments out of drawers... Victoria' s Secret for one.

A part of VS's corporate marketing strategy is to make lingerie / intimate apparel shopping commonplace similar to buying toothpaste. In the past, buying such items was considered a private activity that one would do in discretion.

Have you been to a VS's store? If you have, you'll see pictures of models plastered all over the windows and walls.

Bras, panties, thongs, hosery, robes, etc... are hanging eveywhere in open display.

Sale items are piled in the middle of the store floors on counters.

Drawers are for reserve inventory to replace items sold from the racks.

[FGTH]

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Huh. $10,000 is a good starting point for web design. I know designers that design for $199 per site, but I don't see how they can feed their families....

I see that price range too for many designers. The low price is normally a starting point for new designers who need to build their portfolio.

I charged $285/page when I first started, attracting small businesses.
When I reached my 50th site, I had enough experience to attract higher paying clients.

Now I focus primarily on companies that repeatedly come back to me for projects. Once you get on their preferred vendor list of service providers, they come back to you.

Cisco for instance pays on average $115/hour. A 3 month project can yield close to $65K. Not too bad when you only have a small team that can execute efficiently.

[JuggoPop]

Originally Posted by FGTH

Have you been to a VS's store?

Yes... I have.

Originally Posted by FGTH

Drawers are for reserve inventory to replace items sold from the racks.

and though there are display items hanging around... the drawers are not just for inventory and replacement... if so, then every woman that I have ever taken there to shop has ended up purchasing items from their hidden inverntory.

but now we are just getting off this thread's subject.

[FGTH]

Originally Posted by JuggoPop

the drawers are not just for inventory and replacement... if so, then every woman that I have ever taken there to shop has ended up purchasing items from their hidden inverntory.

Your argument is totally weak with a major flawed assumption:
1) People don't buy products because they're in drawers. Items in drawers are hidden from view (obvious) so there's no way for a consumer to base a purchase decision. However, consumers know that the drawers contain similar items to those in open display, especially when a particular size or color is not (the drawers are usually beneath the display items).

Consumers don't look at drawers and decide buy or not buy. They look at the products. Imagine a store with drawers, if you can, a store of drawers without products on display (as exemplified by the website design of discussion). It would look like a furniture store; not a clothing store.

You state that the people you take to VS's buy from drawers. This statement doesn't support the idea that drawers sell the product. In fact, it has no bearing on the subject. It's like saying people don't buy from stores, but rather from doors instead; since consumers have to get the items through the door.

Drawers are not part of the product and don't influence consumer buying decisions (unless you're selling drawers or realted items to drawers).

The manner in which the product is presented (packaging and promotion) to the consumer has influence.

You actually pointed out your own flaw by using the term "hidden".
If a product is in a drawer, consumers can't see it.

[JuggoPop]

The term "hidden" was in referance to the way you talked about it being for invertory only and that no one see those products.

and the reason I brought it up was because you said to name a store that sells product out of drawers... I did. period.

I don't care if it's a good way to sell product or not... I was stating the fact thay they do, not trying to discuss VS's business practices.

And the comment that my argument is weak and flawed is weak in itself, as I am not debating anything... I'm stating facts that you requested.

[JuggoPop]

Also...
If you actually want to compare the use of drawers to stores and the use in the site at hand, then lets do so.

(this is part of a real debate)
The site is an online store... yes.
But it is not in any way setup like a store. I don't think it was ever ment to. If you look at the site it is exactly what the web is best used for... getting you out of everyday situations and allowing you to feel comfortable in a imagined environment.

This site (as a site, not a store) is based around the idea that you are in your own home (where most people shop online from). Look at the first page, she is approching her chest of drawers thinking to herself about what she might want to wear. The same as a young mom might do at home... this makes it feel comfortable to the consumer.

You provide an environment through a site that makes the person feel at home with the product. The visitor browses at leasure for items that they don't find in their drawers... decides that they want too... then purchases.

If you want to get very strict about the use of the internet for sales then ALL stores would have to model their site exactly like a storefront. If you hang clothes on racks in your store, then they better be on racks on your site. If you just list products on your site in html tables and cells, then when I come to the real store I better see everything laid out in squares with descriptions written next to them...

When you debate the little things about a layout, like saying that no store would sell all of their product in chest of drawers with no product on display... then you are tearing down the whole point of creative web design... the fact that it is not useful in a real store, only makes it more creative that you can actually pull it off online.

And even if they are in drawers where no one can see the product, they did label the drawers as to what you will find in there.

I think the drawers in this site are exactly why the web is such a great place... it allows for creative thinking.

Now as far as the overall site, there are problems like the shopping cart software used, and the dropdown list of products once you get into a section... these things could have been improved upon (as stated in the front of this thread).

But to debate the fact that the site is not good because it doesn't look like a real store front... well that's up for personal opinon.

[FGTH]

Originally Posted by JuggoPop

The term "hidden" was in referance to the way you talked about it being for invertory only and that no one see those products.

and the reason I brought it up was because you said to name a store that sells product out of drawers... I did. period.

I don't care if it's a good way to sell product or not... I was stating the fact thay they do, not trying to discuss VS's business practices.

And the comment that my argument is weak and flawed is weak in itself, as I am not debating anything... I'm stating facts that you requested.

Victoria's Secret does not sell products from drawers. They sell from the racks with items stored in drawers.

I did not state that consumers never see the items within the drawers: you did. That's one of your myopic assumptions.

FYI: Fundamentals of website project management:
The first step is to determine the feasibility of the design.
The design does not address the major challenges of conducting business online; nor does the design use any of the ieas from the "brick and mortar" paradigm that have proven successful.

Also, your answer and comments did not address my question nor the ideas stated within the questions.

However, you have revealed much about youself. But that's just my opinion.

From an artistic standpoint, the design is great. From a website design perspective; it's horrible and definitely not worth $10K.

[Fusion]

I have to agree with Juggopop. They aren't selling underwear out of drawers; it's just for navigational purposes; an interface. They are following the most popular layout format top and left distributed, and using familiar conventions.

You can't compare regular commerce to e-commerce. Models of payment might be similar but that's about it. You aren't greeted by a smiling assistant at the door etc. The products in that site are not stored in drawers, its just an analogy to the fact that women do-in-fact keep underwear in drawers at home. :wink:

In the plethora of document style websites I think this is refreshing; much more so than an online instant storefront. Look and fell counts.

If you're talking about usability from a 'website design perspective' or whatever you meant by that --then maybe its not met its goals.

FYI Fundamentals of development:
Step 1: Project analysis; SWOT. Establishing the hierarchy of the team

Step 2: Client expectations and evaluation.

Step 3: Sign off stages

Step 4: Project transition

Then then actual project:

Conceptualization
Design visualization
Analysis
Production
Evolution

Sounds better doesn't it

User interaction always should come before the look and feel. Bottom-up approach.

[Atom]

Nah... not to me.

Some nice little chickies there, though..

[JuggoPop]

Originally Posted by FGTH

However, you have revealed much about youself.

I would say you have as well.

[FGTH]

Originally Posted by FuSion

FYI Fundamentals of development:
Step 1: Project analysis; SWOT. Establishing the hierarchy of the team

Step 2: Client expectations and evaluation.

Step 3: Sign off stages

Step 4: Project transition

Then then actual project:

Conceptualization
Design visualization
Analysis
Production
Evolution

Sounds better doesn't it

User interaction always should come before the look and feel. Bottom-up approach.

What you listed doesn't work since you're allocating resources (team) prior to understanding the project requirements.

The first step is to always conduct a feasibility study of the project. A project is unique and should not start if there is no need for it.

You should readup on PMBOK to understand what and why PMI is the most widely accepted standards in the world.

SWOT is strategic.
This falls into product management and not project management.
PM is tactical.

[Fusion]

No, I said first you evaluate the project; then establish the team; SWOT can analyse the teams skills based on what is required. Whats wrong with strategies and tatics? In a war you plan your team then set up an attack of the base, and certain people do certain jobs.

I dont understand the bit where you said "the project is unique and should not start if there is no need for it". It makes no sense, its like saying theres no point swimming if theres water in the pool.

SWOT It has no definate bearing on product management, its a tool for evaluation.

[PaulHarris]

IMO I think the work that has gone into the site is worth the money.

Be interesting to find out how long before she sells enough underwear at a profit to cover the cost of the site though.....

[Johan007]

I know I have changed my mind mid way through this tread and now I have taken a break and come back to it, I must agree that it is worth 10k. It may not be the best use of money and the customer could have done better with a simple usable 2k site but the site in question is worth 10k becuase of the design. They should have have also intergrated the cart better IMO.

And lets not forget that girls may feel more at home with a cute site like this than a manly technical site?

[younghistorians]

I don't want to offend anyone that may do this, but I cannot stand those sites that sell web design in packages, for instance:

PACKAGE A-Great for newbies
Includes 5 pages
Logo
custom guestbook
10 colors used


etc


geez

[Fusion]

Yeah muppets. Also those logo sites that have place your name here.

[FGTH]

Originally Posted by FuSion

No, I said first you evaluate the project; then establish the team; SWOT can analyse the teams skills based on what is required. Whats wrong with strategies and tatics? In a war you plan your team then set up an attack of the base, and certain people do certain jobs.

I dont understand the bit where you said "the project is unique and should not start if there is no need for it". It makes no sense, its like saying theres no point swimming if theres water in the pool.

SWOT It has no definate bearing on product management, its a tool for evaluation.

1) Every project is unique because projects are not routine. Ask any experienced Project Manager this and they'll all agree with me. Even better, try opening up a book on PM and look up the definition of a project yourself. I'm not wasting any more time reading your idiotic comments.
2) Please refrain from making idiotic comments on subjects you know nothing about.

SWOT stands for:
S=Strengths
W=Weaknesses
O=Opportunities (Market Opportunities)
T=Threats (Market Threats... can be summarized into 5 groups)

SWOT is meant to analyze product strategy; not for project management.