Volunteerism Creates Better Directories?

[swedal]

Over the years of working with directories something has become painfully clear. There are way too many directories being put up by owners who have no idea of what it takes to be a directory editor. The problem with this is that editing is the cornerstone of running a directory of any quality.

For some time I have thought that the one best piece of advice to give to someone thinking of starting a directory may be to first learn the craft through volunteerism. Unfortunately one rarely sees this advice given anywhere on forums. In fact I don’t think I have ever seen it given as a response to threads where people ask for advice when starting a directory.

Wouldn’t the directory community and future directory owners be better served if those considering building a directory first started by donating some time in established directories which offer volunteer editor positions?

This would allow those with an interest in starting a directory a chance to learn from experienced editors to see if they enjoyed editing. Volunteering would allow them to experience the work that goes with running a directory to gain real perspective and knowledge.

Of course this would not be something that any of the fly by night directory operators who care nothing of quality would do, but it would be an avenue for those who are well intentioned and interested in creating a quality resource of their own to take.

Thoughts?

Just a few of the places I know of that accept volunteer editors are BOTW.org, Skaffe, JoeAnt and dmoz.

[robjones]

I've suggested it at some point, but I dont recall where. Bottom line it's a great way to learn the biz, and it gives people a chance to learn directories with mentors to aid the learning curve. Beats the heck outta making the investment of getting started and suddenly realizing you dont have a clue where to start. There's more to it than buying a script and watching money roll in. Done incorrectly up front it can cripple the chance of a directory being taken seriously. A volunteer gig is a great way to make any mistakes in a spot where you have someone to catch and correct 'em.

Good idea for a thread.

[anonymously]

The problem is getting accepted as a volunteer in the first place. What we really need is a directory who will take anyone and supervise their work. But that is not living in the real world because it takes a good deal of time to supervise and if it were a real directory and not simply a training directory then it would be blitzed with people wanting to edit for the wrong reasons.

But it is the best training ground, both Rob and I would attest to that I am sure, I certainly knew nothing 9 years ago when I was accepted for a small cetegory in DMOZ. Sometimes think I know not so much more now, that's just before Rob adds that comment, but it has been through the encouragement and teaching of senior editors that I learned what little I do know. But supporting and teaching is very time consuming and I see the mentors on DMOZ give endless hours in training.

Swedal is right, editing is the cornerstone, the number of sites is not by any manner of means the best criteria to judge a directory. People queue up to offer their site to any new free directory, but if the end user finds only junk sites then they will not come back again.

[stoner3221]

I have known many volunteer editors who have moved on the good carriers based on what they learned as editors. Editing gives you a great deal of advertising and marketing exposure and keen insights into the industry and the latest trends.

[swedal]

I completely agree with you Rob.

And I agree with nearly everything in your post anonymously. There was one part that was a little unclear to me.

Originally Posted by anonymously

if it were a real directory and not simply a training directory then it would be blitzed with people wanting to edit for the wrong reasons.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by wrong motives.

On the surface that hints like more of an internal cultural or corporate problem with an organization to me.

An organization should not look at volunteerism in the sense that the volunteer has some sinister ulterior motive for volunteering. They should determine if the person has the ability to contribute and based on that determine if it is a good fit. After all the volunteer is showing they want to contribute by volunteering. From there any volunteer organization should have the capacity to monitor activity. Then if there turned out to be a clearly defined problem it could be addressed through training or other means.

Anyone who ever volunteered for anything has had ulterior motives of some sort. Even if it is simply they enjoy the work or helping others makes them feel better about themselves.

[anonymously]

I think I was saying that if it were a real directory, not just a training directory that did not go live, then the mentors could spend hours with people who simply wanted to list their own site and go. From what I hear at DMOZ we have many who want to do that and from what I see at DMOZ I run across too many editors who have listed the three sites they offered including their own and left. Now that is not too much of an issue in one way because three more sites got listed, but if it had been built as a training programme, then someone could have spent a long time with the person and simply wasted that time. In DMOZ before you can go to 'editing school' you have to have a little experience before you can sign up. Mentors and time are hard to come by.

[ab80]

I used to be very active on JoeAnt...and I still add sites to it (aisde from my own directory) whenever I get some extra time. I do believe that swedal's suggestion is noteworthy and editing and crreating quality descriptions and good anchor texts are stuff that can be learned well through volunteerism...

[anonymously]

We seem to agree that it is a good idea, problem is where to get the experience, it needs to be somewhere which has well experienced editors willing to give more time or less to editing. Within DMOZ we number new editors in thousands each year. That can be an enormous task to give even basic training if the organisation is run by volunteers.

But there are many owners/editors on V7N could that be part of what this grouping does?

[robjones]

I've mentioned before, Botw has a volunteer editor program in the blog directory. Since that isnt as widely know as the dmoz volunteer program it doesnt get near the number of applicants... leaving a pretty easy ratio to work with where staff editors are more readily available to act in a mentor capacity.

The guys available to act in mentor roles include some that participated in Dmoz in the early days (including the folks that mentored me when I was there)... so many have a decade of experience.

Because that program gets fewer spam applicants it's easier to get into. It's also a lot easier to watch their actions because the numbers are smaller, so there's zero draw for anyone that wants to go in and add their own site 4 times in one category (and a big UNDO button remove their adds as fast as the screen can refresh, spammers need not apply).

Where dmoz tends to add (or reject) editors steadily on an ongoing basis, botw's vol program tends to bring them on in waves... like admitting a new class to school or boot camp. One crew may come in together one month... another group might come in together a few months later. Nobody feels like theyre the only "new guy" that way. They have access to threads where the staff editors are working and a chance to interact with the paid eds, so it's a great learning tool.

As has been stated in the OP, volunteering is a good way to learn the trade for those that are thinking of editing a directory professionally. Learning from someone else's experience is a great tool, beats making all the rookie mistakes and figuring it out on your own.

[Dan]

To put a different perspective on it, I like to train/teach/explain/discuss with directory owners what types of sites NOT to add (where types is not the subject matter but sites with similar problems/issues that make them unsuitable for directories).

In the end, these involved owners are the ones that turn around and catch me out on occasion if I have missed something with a particular directory, using my own methods against me. It's great fun

Watching them build their directories is the satisfying part for me. For whilst I watch others just add every directory they come across to ever bloated lists, we are slowly working together building a much smaller but stronger list, because the owners actually care about their resource, right down to minute spelling mistakes.

The main problem with these non-caring owners is that by buying a script, then spruiking it in any place that will listen, is that they will get massive amounts of recurring free traffic. It's one thing to do an announcement on a forum and gain a spike of traffic, it's quite another to be listed on a site that has vast amounts of traffic and which will continue to send the listed directory a LOT of traffic. That in turn makes the directory owner think that what they are doing is viable, as they see their Alexa go through the roof.

Those of us in the know, can only watch and shake our heads as another worthless directory network is born and the directory list owner is heaped with praise. *sigh* I wish things were different, but sadly the majority will not listen and will not learn.

You guys have given some great advice, what saddens me here is that it is the same people as always in the discussion. Not to be taken the wrong way, as all the input has been good, I'd just like to see the people reading this acknowledge that they have learnt something.

Where are the directory owners and editors who quite gladly promote themselves in the announcements forum? Why aren't they reading this thread and giving us their 2 cents about what they might have learnt about running a directory from you?

If I was new to the scene, and I had found this thread, I would be printing it out and absorbing the knowledge. Then I would be thanking the posters in the thread for passing the information onto me

[robjones]

In the end, these involved owners are the ones that turn around and catch me out on occasion if I have missed something with a particular directory, using my own methods against me. It's great fun

I have a couple of dozen editors that like to point out my inconsistencies on occasion. OK, not all of them do, but some seem to get a kick out of it. LOL. It's fortunate that I have no shame at times like that. Everyone gets caught in do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do mode on occasion. Helps to have folks to keep us grounded (and humble) even if you do wanna smother 'em with a moldy pillow.

You guys have given some great advice, what saddens me here is that it is the same people as always in the discussion. Not to be taken the wrong way, as all the input has been good, I'd just like to see the people reading this acknowledge that they have learnt something.

As the directory crew that does most of the chatter is pretty heavily entrenched in the mentor and mod roles here it may be some people shy away from diving in. I dunno, that's conjecture. We lack the numbers we have at "the other place" because most of those are linkspammers that just want to start BS threads that cover the same ground as 5 others of the same ilk already in progress. I'll settle for less of those and better quality discussions as a result.

Still I agree that it'd be nice to see others get into the conversational mix here. If theyre directory newbies their fresh perspective has value... they may have questions that a lot of others take for granted. I like it when we get new eds at our directory cause they always see things that I've looked at so long I dont even notice 'em. Helps to have a good mix of old an new in any group.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by robjones

I have a couple of dozen editors that like to point out my inconsistencies on occasion. OK, not all of them do, but some seem to get a kick out of it. LOL. It's fortunate that I have no shame at times like that. Everyone gets caught in do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do mode on occasion. Helps to have folks to keep us grounded (and humble) even if you do wanna smother 'em with a moldy pillow.

Hahaha tell me about it. I find Tontine are the best brand for this

As the directory crew that does most of the chatter is pretty heavily entrenched in the mentor and mod roles here it may be some people shy away from diving in.

No need for anyone to be shy here. Everyone is friendly and open to a discussion without any vitriol. I know forums can be daunting, but when people come out and play and ask questions and offer their own opinions then everyone learns more.

I dunno, that's conjecture. We lack the numbers we have at "the other place" because most of those are linkspammers that just want to start BS threads that cover the same ground as 5 others of the same ilk already in progress. I'll settle for less of those and better quality discussions as a result.

Yes. Numbers. Those threads on that other place are ridiculous. They are repetitive (sometimes you can find 10 of the same thread in the one forum, worded not-that-differently). There is very little information to be found that is useful either, in fact I would suggest that other place specialises in misinformation. The few people that I did consider strong posters on there are all over here now

Still I agree that it'd be nice to see others get into the conversational mix here. If theyre directory newbies their fresh perspective has value... they may have questions that a lot of others take for granted. I like it when we get new eds at our directory cause they always see things that I've looked at so long I dont even notice 'em. Helps to have a good mix of old an new in any group.

I have a handful of people over at my own forum who've dipped their toe in the water, and who now start most of the threads. Their questions create work for me because they ask difficult ones and I'm forced to actually think before I answer hahaha. That's half the fun I think

[Cricket]

You guys have given some great advice, what saddens me here is that it is the same people as always in the discussion. Not to be taken the wrong way, as all the input has been good, I'd just like to see the people reading this acknowledge that they have learnt something.

I for one have learned a tremendous amount of information from watching these conversations. I am prolly slow to jump into some of them because I don't wanna say something stupid!

Many thanks to all of you for taking the time to share this information!

[Alexs]

I am a volunteer editor and it's true, there is more than just accepting and listing Web sites. Since I was accepted as editor I've learned a lot and I think will learn a lot.

Just a piece of advice, when you apply as a volunteer editor, have an open mind and learn as much as you can and be prepared for rejection (lol). After all it is through mistakes that we learn.

[anonymously]

I stated earlier some of the problems of finding places to be a volunteer editor, because it is useless to be editing in a directory where the owner does not understand editing principles. I was also a little circumspect about the amount of editors that DMOZ take on, the figures have not usually been available. But in one of the recent AOL/DMOZ blogs the figure given for new editors accepted last year is 2500, so there are a lot of people volunteering and being accepted. http://blog.dmoz.org/

So there are opportunities. But as Alexs says, be prepared for rejection. Think carefully about your application, no directory wants to accept someone who seems to just want to become an editor just to list their own site, or even to learn the ropes so they can go away and start their own directory. Though ofcourse many editors in the larger directories do also run their own or participate in other editing positions.

I think one of the reasons that some would not want to hear the things that are being said in this thread is that the web is seen as an easy way to make money and directories one of the easiest ways. But the reality is actually neither. Directories have to be good with good links or no one submits and building good links is, back to square one, down to good editing and good editors and good editors learn the trade by being volunteers where people with skills can mentor them..

[an0n]

I think that there are always two sides to Volunteerism:

Side A. - You do get quality oriented people who enjoy what they would be doing for no personal gain. (Very, very hard to find)

Side B. - The only interest one has in 'volunteering' is to get themselves within the directory and to also try and eliminate any and all competition in their category.

Just because an individual decides to donate their free time in their area of expertise, doesn't necessarily mean they aren't expecting something in return.

To me overall, this topic is a catch22

Just my .o2

[Harkster]

Originally Posted by Dan

I have a handful of people over at my own forum who've dipped their toe in the water, and who now start most of the threads. Their questions create work for me because they ask difficult ones and I'm forced to actually think before I answer hahaha. That's half the fun I think

Oh, the bubble has been burst. I had been under the impression that Dan was the all seeing most omnipotent one and purveyor of everything that is good and true. Must remember to wash my mouth out with soap on the morrow. Actually he has been a great source of information and (I hope) has me going in the right direction.

Reading, lurking and trying to figure this stuff out. I do dearly love treading a slightly different path than the masses. Keep the good stuff flowing.

[anonymously]

Originally Posted by an0n

I think that there are always two sides to Volunteerism:

Side A. - You do get quality oriented people who enjoy what they would be doing for no personal gain. (Very, very hard to find)

Side B. - The only interest one has in 'volunteering' is to get themselves within the directory and to also try and eliminate any and all competition in their category.

Just because an individual decides to donate their free time in their area of expertise, doesn't necessarily mean they aren't expecting something in return.

To me overall, this topic is a catch22

Just my .o2

I think there is another side which finds people who enjoy the area that they volunteer in and want to promote that, believing that if they have an interest in that area any promotion helps themselves.

Rob is the person who understands real estate more than I, but I have always noticed that when a professional comes into an area and markets housing, all the sellers get a boost and price increases.

Also I think, certainly within DMOZ, we have the weakest teams in shopping etc and the strongest in games, charities etc. So we do find that people want to work in the area because of an interest rather than just wanting to do so for money.

Most directories, I am sure, recognise the issues of people wanting to come and work just to minimise opposition and put various obstacles in place to try and prevent this. DMOZ are very clear that we are happy to have people who have sites, often because it means they do have an interest in the area, but they do also have to say why they want to volunteer and any hint that it is because they only want to list their own site will raise alarm bells. I think Rob has indicated that what BOTW do is to encourage people to work in what is almost a sandpit area with blogs and closely watched. DMOZ also watch new editors and removing good sites or adding only poor sites would attract attention, no editor is the sole editor in any area. It is usually obvious before too long how keen people are to build up a category and those that add a couple of sites, ignore lots of sites in suggestions and log in infrequently (not always abusive editors but need an eye kept for a while).

I think what volunteering offers is the ability to learn but also to catch some enthusiasm from fellow editors. It seems sad to me that directories dissolve into can we earn a fast buck and attract people to try developing their own with no editing skills and fast failure. The essence of this topic was to say that volunteering gave experience which would stand someone in good stead if they began a new directory something which you really did not address.

[robjones]

For any directory that has multiple people involved the best safety measure to avoid the problem Anon addresses is to have the edit records visible to all editors, not just the guys running the show. Not only does it highly discourage misbehavior... it serves a major QC function and mentoring aid.

Here's how I addressed that topic in a tongue in cheek Wallpaper for editors back in my Dmoz years. [see thumbnail]


Gotta couple of pages of those things laying around. Yeah, I had far too much time on my hands, but it was fun.
See http://www.texasbesthomes.com/pix/da...tors/index.htm for the full set.

[ab80]

Originally Posted by robjones

is to have the edit records visible to all editors, not just the guys running the show.

This will definitely "straighten" the industry in the long run...