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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 01:26 AM
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>>>So you are saying that a properly optimized page, not ranking, is indicative of absence of authority.

No again that is not what I have said.

Here is what I have said.

<<<...in general the level of competitive keywords you can rank on the first page of the SERP, with out getting inbound links to that page shows the level of authority your site has.

>>>So we must assume that there are less than 100 websites on the web with authority.

No. First I am talking about more than one keywords. "the level of competitive keywords [plural] you can rank on the first page of the SERP"

>>>And a lot of sites rank on the basis of SEO, not authority.

When you rank for competitive keywords and it is not from off-page SEO it is always a combination of on-page SEO and site authority. I don't see how there is any way around that.

While on-page SEO is required it will only take you so far with competitive keywords where you are not using off-page SEO.

So to me it is very clear that site authority is going to make the difference when off-page SEO is not used and the level of on-page optimization that is used from site to site is equal. I don't see how there is any way around that.

>>>Furthermore, the qualifier you mention is that a site is properly optimized. Did somebody go ahead and determine that Aviva is properly optimized, and then announce that Aviva is worthless? Or did they assume?

I appear to me that Rand just took the title tag and I presume because that tag holds the most weight in his view.

I do thing that Rand's test is still valid. But I hold that a better test is to optimize the category pages with competitive titles that relate to the page and to do all on-page optimization and then see how well the pages rank.

One of the things I have started doing with my blog is to pick a keyword I think I can rank for on the first page and use it as a title and optimize the blog post page for that phrase. If I don't get to the home page in the first week I will go and look for another keyword and change the page so it is optimized for that keyword and do a 301 of the old page to the new page.
 

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 01:31 AM
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One of the things I have started doing with my blog is to pick a keyword I think I can rank for on the first page and use it as a title and optimize the blog post page for that phrase. If I don't get to the home page in the first week I will go and look for another keyword and change the page so it is optimized for that keyword and do a 301 of the old page to the new page.
Are you suggesting that Jeff should be forced to go through his directory and rename all of the categories to include keywords he is likely to rank for, in order to appease you and Rand?
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 01:34 AM
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>>>A better way would be to link to an off-site page with unique anchor text and see how it affects that page's ranking.

I totally disagree. It would be very hard to measure this metric. How well you rank is very easy to see.

>>>And why would you use ranking as a metric?

Because that is what it is all about. How well you rank in the SERP.

>>>It's entirely unscientific.

I disagree. It is completely scientific as we have a metric of items that give site authority and we have a metric for the results -- placement in the SERP.

>>>Those rankings could be due to a number of different factors.

Not at all. If you put up a page and don't give it off-page SEO. And you equally apply on-page optimization. There is only one thing left and that is site authority.

I am not sure why you are not seeing this : )
 
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:36 AM
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http://dmoz.org/Regional/North_Ameri...ates/New_York/

Doesn't rank in the top 100 for New York. So by your standard and Rand's, dmoz has no authority.

Glad we finally settled that.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 01:36 AM
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>>>Are you suggesting that Jeff should be forced to go through his directory and rename all of the categories to include keywords he is likely to rank for, in order to appease you and Rand?

Not at all. I think you will search in vain (even if you use Google) to find where I have suggested that. With Rand I will let me speak for himself, but I think that you can guess the answer as well as I can : )
 
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:40 AM
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>>>http://dmoz.org/Regional/North_Ameri...ates/New_York/
Doesn't rank in the top 100 for New York. So by your standard and Rand's, dmoz has no authority.
Glad we finally settled that.

New York is to competitive a keyword to use as an example. I think even you know that : )

There is no way you can rank for a high competitive keyword like "New York" with out off-site SEO.

Any way I think I have laid my position out clear enough and we don't seem to be moving ahead here : )

I think I need a bit of sleep.
 
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 01:46 AM
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New York is to competitive a keyword to use as an example. I think even you know that : )
Funny how the excuses roll out for dmoz, but everybody is eager to crucify Jeff.

For the record, Jeff does have awesome organic linkage. He also has awesome non-organic linkage. He promotes like hell, and in my opinion he has respectable amount of authority.

I know that isn't as much fun as crucifying the poor guy, but it is factually correct.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 05:32 AM
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Just asking a question here. Why and there are so many web directories such as DMOZ, BOTW, Skaffe, and the example that you have to give Rand is Aviva. Is there anything about Aviva and needed a club to swing at Jeff's Aviva ? Or is it about the blog post of SEOMOZ being a QBC and have to swing back ?

Thanks

Last edited by tantantin; 07-25-2007 at 05:36 AM.
 
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 06:03 AM
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Ooops --it took me 1 hr. to finish reading all the posts since I left the last time
@ Bob Mutch --

I can now understand what authority site means. But you have not yet stated the exact criterias -for example -

Domain Age -- How Long?
Site Age -- How Long?

Also .gov, .edu, links means no more importance according to Matt Cutts.
How many of those links you want? There is one PR8 .edu site that sells footer links as sponsored. List it there --and your IQL tool will pull 10000 .edu links. Is it called authority?

Now back to the subject---

I have one PR4 directory -- Titled "Page Rank Luck Directory"
I tried some combinations --with the title like

Page Rank
Luck Directory
Page Directory
Page Rank Directory
and few more --

I rank inside top 100 for all. Not only that --I also rank well for different categories on the directory.
There is a sitewide advertisement -- "Links Factory Strong Directory"
I rank on 1st page for that Keyword too.

I usually hit this DC -- http://72.14.235.104/

So according to your definition of Authority ranking --by site qualifies for all of them. It only shows around 18000 Yahoo backlinks and 200 -odd G backlinks.

Do you or Mr. Rand want me to believe that my site has much much higher authority than Aviva has?

I don't live in a dream SEO world. I am not a SEO expert too. But SEO is nothing more than optimizing the keywords you rank for --- isn't?

But I never optimized -- All those keywords .

The concept of determining a Directory ( Please mark the word Directory) - on the basis of Search Engine Ranking is totally false. While SERPs is what every site looks for -- it is not for directories. Because the main role of directories is to help other sites get quickly indexed, help them to rank better.

SEROMOZ/Mr. Rand has to prove scientifically and logically why they don't think Aviva is quality. It has attacked one of us --and now there is no looking back for us --directory owners --to soon blog around how cheap a route SEOMOZ is has taken to get traffic and perhaps links by attacking one of our leaders.

OR is it because SEOMOZ/Mr Rand wants Jeff as their clients? There was a post by Mr. Rand --where he states that he is working with Jeff to rank better.

I hope Jeff does not fall in the TRAP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tantantin View Post
Or is it about the blog post of SEOMOZ being a QBC and have to swing back ?

Thanks
Hey Old Maaann-- thats probably the reason Rand Fishkin is mad at Jeff and his Aviva.

I'll try to soon blog about SEOMOZ and how it sucks on my BLOG --I hope Rand will rubbish my directory too.

Just for info -- Google is loving my BLOG as its posts are ranking even for a fraction of the titles.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...es&btnG=Search

So -- I'll title a very relevant keyword while choosing SEOMOZ.
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Last edited by jhnrang; 07-25-2007 at 06:06 AM.
 
  #70 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 06:13 AM
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I'll try to soon blog about SEOMOZ and how it sucks on my BLOG --I hope Rand will rubbish my directory too.
<<<<<<< - Ditto.
 
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 08:29 AM
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>>>Funny how the excuses roll out for dmoz, but everybody is eager to crucify Jeff.

I don't see may people here eager to crucify Jeff. All I see is Rand noting what many professional SEO consultants all ready know and many directories owners with a vested interest may not want to acknowledge -- most directories don't have much site authority and in most cases they are just a glorified link-sell under the guise of a directory that have had their home page Pagerank artificially pumped up by link rentals instead of won links.

You can get Pagerank this way and look good to the Pagerank hounds that are 2 years behind the times and still buying links based on PR but it is very hard to win site authority with purchased links.

While Rands position, right or wrong, is a view that many SEO professionals hold I fail to see the reason to take his critical analysis of Aviva and other similar directories personal and to charge his critical analysis report or methods as "very dishonest".

>>>For the record, Jeff does have awesome organic linkage. He also has awesome non-organic linkage. He promotes like hell, and in my opinion he has respectable amount of authority.

What matrix are you using to measure site authority.

I hold that site authority can be directly measured by how well a site rankings for competitive key phrases when no off-page SEO is used.

>>>I know that isn't as much fun as crucifying the poor guy, but it is factually correct.

Now I have been wrong more than once and am always willing to be taught and have my views upgraded. What factual information have you provided that is measurable that the said directory has a respectable amount of authority (note that I have not stated that it hasn't).

Last edited by bobmutch; 07-25-2007 at 08:37 AM.
 
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bobmutch View Post
... what many professional SEO consultants all ready know and many directories owners with a vested interest may not want to acknowledge -- most directories don't have much site authority and in most cases they are just a glorified link-sell under the guise of a directory that have had their home page Pagerank artificially pumped up by link rentals instead of won links.
Yep, except I would refine that to say that the category pages don't have much topical authority.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:04 AM
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Hey gang, just FYI - I wrote about directories again last night - http://www.seomoz.org/blog/the-wisdo...-link-building

With regards to choosing Jeff's site - I actually picked it out because I knew of it. Jeff's done a great job with branding and he and I had exchanged some emails. I've also seen his site mentioned on Digg a few times.

When I began the post, I had no expectation of finding that Aviva would have ranking problems, I just wanted to show the process that I use to check the value of a directory (or any web page for that matter).

As Bob argues, I think there's a lot of value in checking out a page's rankings for its own targeted keywords. When investigating Aviva, or any specific brand, you'd need to remove the brand name itself to make the "can you rank" test worthwhile.

BTW - With Aviva specifically, they're under a penalty - there's no other explanation for why they can't rank for even the names of their articles that have made it to Digg - http://www.google.com/search?q=99+ti...d+on+the+cheap - not even in the top 10, when every site that is listed links to them.

I'm actually working on helping Jeff out with that issue.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:14 AM
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Rand, I see them at #1 for the title of the article:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ap&btnG=Search
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:17 AM
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As Bob argues, I think there's a lot of value in checking out a page's rankings for its own targeted keywords. When investigating Aviva, or any specific brand, you'd need to remove the brand name itself to make the "can you rank" test worthwhile.
The test seems a bit of a mystery. Evidently, DMOZ fails the test, or the the test is only valid with non-competitive keywords, in which case the application of the test to Aviva was flawed.

I really am speechless here. I am not trying to be antagonistic, but would appreciate some further light shedding on your part.

This test of yours, non competitive keywords only? Word sequence butchered is ok?
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bobmutch View Post
>>>Funny how the excuses roll out for dmoz, but everybody is eager to crucify Jeff.

I don't see may people here eager to crucify Jeff. All I see is Rand noting what many professional SEO consultants all ready know and many directories owners with a vested interest may not want to acknowledge -- most directories don't have much site authority and in most cases they are just a glorified link-sell under the guise of a directory that have had their home page Pagerank artificially pumped up by link rentals instead of won links.

You can get Pagerank this way and look good to the Pagerank hounds that are 2 years behind the times and still buying links based on PR but it is very hard to win site authority with purchased links.
See how you did that? See that word, "purchased links"? Yes, he does spend a ton of money promoting his site, but he also has a very very respectable amount of organic linkage. But the way you state it totally denies that, and misleads people into thinking he has "artificial" value.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:28 AM
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I hold that site authority can be directly measured by how well a site rankings for competitive key phrases when no off-page SEO is used.
Whoa there, hold the phone. Didn't you just say that competitive keywords couldn't be used in that test?

http://www.v7n.com/forums/657436-post66.html
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:31 AM
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Jhnrang:
>>>I can now understand what authority site means. But you have not yet stated the exact criterias -for example -
Domain Age -- How Long?
Site Age -- How Long?

Site authority is a concepual term that has no unit of measurement. I know the way more SEO consultant measure it and I have noted that in my many above posts.

Site authority doesn't start at some magic point. It would be fair to say a site has no site authority, little site authority or a lot of site authority.

Of course older domain age and site age should give a site more authority.

>>>Also .gov, .edu, links means no more importance according to Matt Cutts.

That is quite wrong. Matt Cutts only said in his video that here is no setting that say ok this link comes from a site that has an edu or gov TLD so we give it more ranking. He continued on to indicate that these kinds of sites have quality links adn while it is not the domain TLD it is the quality of inbound links that make getting a link from them of value.

>>>How many of those links you want? There is one PR8 .edu site that sells footer links as sponsored. List it there --and your IQL tool will pull 10000 .edu links. Is it called authority?

No that is not called authority. You can have high ILQ sites that doesn't pass PR or ranking juice or are even banned. The easiest way to rate site authority is by how well a site can rank for a new page that is targeting a competitive key phrases with our using off-site SEO.

Even take a key phrase that is not even related to your site and put up a page and see how well you rank for it. This gives you even a better idea as your current off-page SEO is not going to help you rank for a key phrase that you are not targeting.

I did this with a page on my site not long ago.

Quality Business Cards #31
180 million
http://www.google.com/search?q=quality+business+cards
70k
http://www.google.com/search?q="quality+business+cards"

It does better in google.ca at #3.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=quality+business+cards

>>>So according to your definition of Authority ranking --by site qualifies for all of them.

I think a better test is to put up a new page targeting a key phrase and that you have any off-page SEO for.

>>>But SEO is nothing more than optimizing the keywords you rank for --- isn't?

SEO is broken down into off-page optimization, on-page optimization, keyword mining, content, and site authority optimization (old domain, main key words in domain name etc.). SEM goes a step further and deals with usability, analytics, call to action, a/b split testing, blogging, social media optimization, navigation, and a host of other similar items.
 
  #79 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:33 AM
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John:
>>>Whoa there, hold the phone. Didn't you just say that competitive keywords couldn't be used in that test?

Post a link to where you feel like I said that or at least give me a quote.

>>>See how you did that? See that word, "purchased links"? Yes, he does spend a ton of money promoting his site, but he also has a very very respectable amount of organic linkage. But the way you state it totally denies that,

My statement didn't deny anything. I stated what is well known.

Here is my statement.

>>>...most directories don't have much site authority and in most cases they are just a glorified link-sell under the guise of a directory that have had their home page Pagerank artificially pumped up by link rentals instead of won links.

This in my opinion is just true. And keep in mind that I own 2 directories and I also run a huge directory submission service that is growing, but that doesn't blind me to what I consider a plain fact. I base my opinions on facts not on what will promote my business.

>>>and misleads people into thinking he has "artificial" value.

I wasn't even talking about Aviva Directory, I was talking about directories in general.

>>>The test seems a bit of a mystery.

The tests I have suggest have no mystery in them at all. Pick a competitive keyword and put up and page with good on-page optimization and see how well it ranks. Try to pick a keyword that you can get on the home page for. Then see how competitive that keyword is and that will give you a good idea of how much site authority you have.

>>>Evidently, DMOZ fails the test,

I missed your DMOZ examples, were here some that failed the test.

>>>or the the test is only valid with non-competitive keywords, in which case the application of the test to Aviva was flawed.

Not at all. The test is to see how competitive a keyword your site can rank for. If you have strong site authority you will be able to put very competitive key phrases on the home page with no off-page SEO.

Rand, I see them at #1 for the title of the article:
899 pages when you put it in quotes:
[url]http://www.google.com/search?q="Little+Known+Ways+to+Brand+on+the+Cheap"[url]

This is not the right way to test if you have site authority. That phrase only has 899 pages in the Google index. Try some thing around 30k to 70k pages when in quotes.

Last edited by bobmutch; 07-25-2007 at 09:52 AM.
 
  #80 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2007, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
I wasn't even talking about Aviva Directory, I was talking about directories in general.
Well, it's a kind of meaningless conversation if I'm talking about beef and you're talking about chicken.

Quote:
Post a link to where you feel like I said that or at least give me a quote.
http://www.v7n.com/forums/657436-post66.html
Quote:
This in my opinion is just true. And keep in mind that I own 2 directories and I also run a huge directory submission service that is growing, but that doesn't blind me to what I consider a plain fact. I base my opinions on facts not on what will promote my business.
What facts? I've been trying to pin down this "authority ranks" thing for a while now, but when I pointed to DMOZ not ranking, suddenly we cannot use competitive keywords. Even for dmoz? Then non-competitive? But you specifically said "competitive". So I'm lost.
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