Rand Fishkin vs Aviva - Page 5

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 10:57 AM

Barnard:
>>>except I would refine that to say that the category pages don't have much topical authority.

I think the test works better when you are testing with a keyword that your site doesn't have topical authority for. This will help to make sure the rankings for the test are not related to current off-page SEO.

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 11:05 AM

Bob and Rand,

Is Roll Your Own considered highly competitive? I don't think it is.

This dmoz page - http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Tobacco/Cig...Roll_Your_Own/ - has that phrase in its page title, and doesn't rank in the top 500. It even has that exact phrase in the anchor text, and if you folks are real SEO's you know thae anchor text pisses all over page titles.

So can we just all agree that either DMOZ has absolutely no authority (not likely) or your theory that authority means that pages of web directories should rank, is total BS?

And just for the record, I am not saying this in a belligerent tone (for those who would assume I am).

And also for the record, I appreciate both of you spending the time to answer our questions.

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 11:17 AM

John:
>>>Well, it's a kind of meaningless conversation if I'm talking about beef and you're talking about chicken.

You may be missing some thing here John. I made a statement about directories in general. You seemed to indicate that my statement was casting a wrong reflection on Aviva Directory. I clarified by saying it was a statement about directories in general.

Then you tell me that it is meaningless conversation?

While I understand you can misunderstand a statement I make about general directories and attributing that statement to some thing that it wasn't mean to be applied to, but the fact it didn't mean what you though it did doesn't make the statement meaningless.

Personally I think the following statement is very true and hence meaningful.

>>>...most directories don't have much site authority and in most cases they are just a glorified link-sell under the guise of a directory that have had their home page Pagerank artificially pumped up by link rentals instead of won links.

Keep in mind that I have 2 of these such directories and make the major of my living placing links on these kinds of directories. This should give my above statement weigh and if any thing I should be bias toward these types of directories not against them.

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 11:21 AM

John:
>>>Didn't you just say that competitive keywords couldn't be used in that test?

No not at all. I state that high "a high competitive keyword like New York" was not a good test as a site is not going to rank for "New York" with out using off-page SEO.

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmutch

John:
>>>Didn't you just say that competitive keywords couldn't be used in that test?

No not at all. I state that high "a high competitive keyword like New York" was not a good test as a site is not going to rank for "New York" with out using off-page SEO.

So a keyword phrase like "roll your own" should be entirely acceptable, correct?

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 11:50 AM

>>>Is Roll Your Own considered highly competitive? I don't think it is.

A key phrase in quotes with 1.5 million results is very competitive.
http://www.google.com/search?q="roll+your+own"

>>>if you folks are real SEO's you know thae anchor text pxssxs all over page titles.

No sure what you mean here. Page title is the most important on-page SEO item. Inbound links with the key phrase in the anchor text is the most important off-page SEO item, and domain age and keyword in domain are the two top items that give authority to a site not counting off-page SEO.

>>>And also for the record, I appreciate both of you spending the time to answer our questions.

This is a topic I have been working on so what better way to get it tested than to state it on a forum.

I am currently working on a white page 50 blog optimization tips. I have also put together a Title Optimization WordPress plugin that allows you to target a competitive phrases in your blog titles and at the same time it adds a subtitle inline with the title that makes the ("$title: $subtitle") things descriptive so you get the best of both worlds.
http://seo.seocompany.ca/title-optimization/

I then have been converting a number of my blog post titles and seeing what key phrases (how competitive) my blogs can rank for.

This process have shown me the important of the title tag and the important of having site authority (not that I didn't know this before).

My site currently is showing ~60k inbound in Yahoo.
http://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.com.../seocompany.ca

I have one text link rental ad (it was a free link but I started to pay for it after it when to a PR9) and a few forum sigs, other than that my links are mostly won except for a few links for clients and your typical bunch of general directory links.

My links for the most part are won by my web directory lists, seo tool lists, and Pagerank history for 7 years (not that PR matters any more).

Obtaining a sign signature this way gives a site huge authority.

I am currently working on hiring 4 full time bloggers and am planning on putting up a total for 25 blogs on my site. A blog post a day will give me 9000 blog posts targeting competitive keywords that I will aim to rank on the first page of SERP based on site authority.

So I guess the long and short is this is a subject I have done a lot of research into and I am happy to put my view out to the SEO community for testing : )

I am in the process of converting the titles on my http://podcasting.seocompany.ca/ blog. It is going to be interesting to watch the traffic jump.

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

A key phrase in quotes with 1.5 million results is very competitive.

Really? Look at who is ranking. Not a whole lot of weight there. Some sites with very poor link profiles, and **** for on-page SEO.

Quote:

No sure what you mean here.

I mean exactly what I said. Anchor text of links is more powerful than page titles. I didn't ask you to clarify which is on-page SEO and which is not, because I figure we all know which is which.

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 12:03 PM

>>>So can we just all agree that either DMOZ has absolutely no authority (not likely) or your theory that authority means that pages of web directories should rank, is total Bx?

That is not a conclusion I would agree with.

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmutch

>>>So can we just all agree that either DMOZ has absolutely no authority (not likely) or your theory that authority means that pages of web directories should rank, is total Bx?

That is not a conclusion I would agree with.

Yes, I figured as much.

But the fact is, DMOZ doesn't rank for many of the keywords in their category titles. Are you going to dismiss this as "too competitive keywords"?

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 12:30 PM

>>>I mean exactly what I said. Anchor text of links is more powerful than page titles.

I would agree it is the most important off-page SEO item but I am not sure I agree that it is in all cases more powerful that page titles nor would I agree that it is more important that some items that give site authority.

>>>Really? Look at who is ranking. Not a whole lot of weight there. Some sites with very poor link profiles, and **** for on-page SEO.

http://www.seocompany.ca/tool/top-ke...=roll+your+own

You may want to take another look there John.

9 of the sites are 1999 or older.
10 sites are in dmoz and 4 have over 40 dmoz entries.

In the top ten there is www.wired.com and www.oreillynet.com

Now you got me thinking you are not only bias but blind as a bat : )

Anyway we are going more in circles now so I will take a break and see if there is any thing post of substance tomorrow. We can only beat this subject so long.

ramanean · 07-25-2007, 12:36 PM

I just only realized how a good discussion has been going on here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmutch

>>>I mean exactly what I said. Anchor text of links is more powerful than page titles.

.

Only page titles are more important than anchor texts

I had a one month site which ranked very well for it's keyword without any backlinks!

I just only realized how a good discussion has been going on here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmutch

>>>I mean exactly what I said. Anchor text of links is more powerful than page titles.

.

Only page titles are more important than anchor texts

I had a one month site which ranked very well for it's keyword without any backlinks!

The site is www.livepr.info

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...es&btnG=Search

Also I am ranking for this also

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...es&btnG=Search
7th position)

So I would say Title is more important than anchors of a backlink

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmutch

>>>I mean exactly what I said. Anchor text of links is more powerful than page titles.

I would agree it is the most important off-page SEO item but I am not sure I agree that it is in all cases more powerful that page titles nor would I agree that it is more important that some items that give site authority.

>>>Really? Look at who is ranking. Not a whole lot of weight there. Some sites with very poor link profiles, and **** for on-page SEO.

http://www.seocompany.ca/tool/top-ke...=roll+your+own

You may want to take another look there John.

9 of the sites are 1999 or older.
10 sites are in dmoz and 4 have over 40 dmoz entries.

In the top ten there is www.wired.com and www.oreillynet.com

Now you got me thinking you are not only bias but blind as a bat : )

Bob, 9 of the top 500? Or, I get it, you're only looking at the top 10. Why not look at the other 600 or 700 listings that outrank dmoz?

I'm sorry, Bob, but it is hard to take your theory seriously when even DMOZ doesn't rank in the top 500 for a non-competitive keyword phrase like "roll your own". I mean, yeah, dmoz have authority up the wazoo. If they don't rank for silly stuff in their page titles, then I am not going to hold it against other sites.

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 12:45 PM

John the examples are there but if you are just looking to prove your point you will skip over them and looking for examples that uphold your view.

I am willing to acknowledge there are examples for both sides. You seem to just want to find the ones that support you side.

#7 International Business and Trade 185k in quotes
http://www.google.com/search?num=10&...ness+and+Trade
#16 International Taxation 675k in quotes
http://www.google.com/search?num=10&...ional+Taxation
#18 Offshore Services 915k in quotes
http://www.google.com/search?num=10&q=Offshore+Services

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramanean

Only page titles are more important than anchor texts

No, silly. You think if you put "computers" in your silly page titles you will get your silly site to #1 for "computers"?

No, you won't. The only way you are going to rank for heavily competitive keywords like "computers" is via anchor text and links.

Page titles? Ha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramanean

I had a one month site which ranked very well for it's keyword without any backlinks!

No backlinks at all? None? Zero? What is the URL?

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 12:47 PM

>>>I'm sorry, Bob, but it is hard to take your theory seriously when even DMOZ doesn't rank in the top 500 for a non-competitive keyword phrase like "roll your own".

Again John "roll your own" is a very competitive word. It say it is not is to show bias in my opinion. If you are just wanting to support your view and not look at the facts in a non-bias way the discuss to some degree becomes meaningless.

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmutch

John the examples are there but if you are just looking to prove your point you will skip over them and looking for examples that uphold your view.

I am willing to acknowledge there are examples for both sides. You seem to just want to find the ones that support you side.

#7 International Business and Trade 185k in quotes
http://www.google.com/search?num=10&...ness+and+Trade
#16 International Taxation 675k in quotes
http://www.google.com/search?num=10&...ional+Taxation
#18 Offshore Services 915k in quotes
http://www.google.com/search?num=10&q=Offshore+Services

Bob I am sure you know this. I am not denying that web directory pages can rank due to authority of the domain.

I am saying that the fact that some do not rank does not indicate lack of domain authority.

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 12:50 PM

>>>No, silly. You think if you put "computers" in your silly page titles you will get your silly site to #1 for "computers"?

I have never stated anything that would lead any one to think such a thing. Your to bias for me to be able to help you John : )

>>>No, you won't. The only way you are going to rank for heavily competitive keywords like "computers" is via anchor text and links.

You will need site authority also : )

And the page title will help you also.

Kind of a synergy effect on-page, off-page, and site authority.

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobmutch

>>>No, silly. You think if you put "computers" in your silly page titles you will get your silly site to #1 for "computers"?

I have never stated anything that would lead any one to think such a thing. Your to bias for me to be able to help you John : )

>>>No, you won't. The only way you are going to rank for heavily competitive keywords like "computers" is via anchor text and links.

You will need site authority also : )

And the page title will help you also.

Kind of a synergy effect on-page, off-page, and site authority.

Bob, those comments were in response to another poster.

John Scott · 07-25-2007, 12:54 PM

About time for me to hit the hay. You kids behave yourselves.

bobmutch · 07-25-2007, 12:56 PM

>>>I am saying that the fact that some do not rank does not indicate lack of domain authority.

I agree. But how you rank over all for the title tags of your pages that you have not used off-page SEO on indicates your site authority. I don't see any way around admitting this.

If you want to find out your site authority put up a page and on-page optimize it for a key phrase that is not site themed, use no off-page SEO and see how you rank.