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  #1  
Old 07-22-2007, 08:43 AM
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Rand Fishkin vs Aviva

Quote:
Originally Posted by seomoz
Does the directory itself (the home page) rank for any of the moderately competitive terms in it's title, e.g. for Aviva Directory, whose title tag is "Information - Aviva Web Directory," I searched Google for information web directory and didn't find them in the first 500 results.
Where the hell does he pull this criteria from? What basis does he have for stating this? Since when did a page ranking for the words in it's page titles mean something?

There are hundreds of thousands of pages out there, clean as a virgin honeypot, and enjoying some solid linkage, that do not necessarily rank for some words that are in the page titles.

Pretty sure somebody just pulled that criteria out of their ass.

Also note that the page title of the page in question is "Information - Aviva Web Directory", but to prove a non-point, the author searched Google for "information web directory", a phrase that is nothing similar to the page title.

And apply Rand's own criteria to the SEOMoz blog and it will show that the SEOmoz blog is not, um, worthwhile? A little confused here because I'm not sure what the aforementioned, pulled-from-the-ass criteria is supposed to show. But whatever it is supposed to show, it shows the SEOmoz blog in the negative.

"Search Engine Marketing News & Tips" is in the SEOmoz blog page title, but when I search for "news" they aren't in the top ten. Nor when I search for "tips" or when I search for "&", or even "Search Engine Marketing News".


Quote:
Originally Posted by seomoz
Do the pages inside the directory rank well for their targeted phrases, e.g. I might check the financial forums page at Aviva by searching for financial forums information directory at Google - again, not in the top 500 results (even though the page is recently indexed). If I dont' find general pages, I'll search for more specific ones, like their page on ScaleModel.net with a search for international list of scale model related web sites (unbelievably not in the top 300)
Who said that Aviva Directory was targeting the phrase "financial forums information directory"??? Where the hell is this guy getting this crap? I mean, you want to piss on somebody else's work, fine, but do so honestly. Don't go making up keyword phrases and saying that Aviva is targeting them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seomoz
Check the links to the directory - do they appear legitimate and valuable, e.g. For Aviva - 907,819 to the domain, 683,573 to the homepage. They're at close to a million links, but can't rank for even 5-6 word phrases in their title tags... Something's funny.
Can't even rank for the 5-6 word phrases in their title tags? They do rank for most of the searches I checked, but then I didn't alter the title tags. Somewhat dishonest article if you ask me, and by "somewhat" I mean "very".

Aviva has been on Digg's home page more than once, and the organic linkage it enjoys is nothing short of awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seomoz
Check the page strength - do they have links from edu and gov domains? Are they listed in places like dmoz or Wikipedia? Do blogs regularly link to them (Technorati numbers)? What's their PageRank? etc. For Aviva, they're a PS 7 (although the Technorati numbers aren't coming through right now).
Why should anybody check page strength? Does Google use page strength? No. Does Google give extra credit for .edu links? No. for .gov links? No. Do most professional SEO's know that most edu and gov links are actually on spam pages? I would hope so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seomoz
Check out mentions of the domain on the web - do they come from legitimate sources? Is it mostly SEO-related websites that are talking about them? If so, the engines might have less trust in them than in other types of sites, e.g. for Aviva, searching google for avivadirectory.com -site:avivadirectory.com.
Again, "the engines might have less trust in them than in other types of sites"????? Any sources to back up this assumption?

Do these directories have value? I will have to go with a response that is 180 degrees from Rand Fishkin: YES.

http://www.v7n.com/forums/web-direct...ories-win.html

I regularly experiment with new sites and web directory submission, and I can say, YES, web directories with editorial integrity like Aviva do help you in the SERPs.

And I would suggest that you evaluate web directories with a much more useful criteria - one, that they rewrite titles and descriptions, and reject unworthy submissions.

And two, that they have high quality sites in their index that serve the public.
 

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  #2  
Old 07-22-2007, 08:52 AM
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Excellent response John! It is funny these guys create their own procedure and decide the fate of big directories based on their lame criterias.

SEOMOZ is of course a big joke. I find it funny they come up with issues like this while they are unable to provide accurate infromation via their page stregth tool.
 
  #3  
Old 07-22-2007, 08:59 AM
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related thread

I haven't read the page you are quoting from John, and those examples Rand is using are pathetic, but the point (I think) he is trying to make is valid - are the category pages being seen by the SE's as valuable (or hubs)?

For me, this is what separates the paid directories (what's the value added) from the free directories (where a link is a link).
 
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Old 07-22-2007, 09:03 AM
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The point is a valid one, that there are a bunch of crap directories out there. But the criteria he uses are a worthless, and the example he uses is wrong. And the way he seems to implement his criteria is also dishonest. He butchers a title tag and then says that because they don't rank for the title tag that he butchered, they are then crap? Whoa there, way dishonest.
 
  #5  
Old 07-22-2007, 10:43 AM
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Unhappy SEO MOZ SUCKS

John i have got enough points to prove seomoz sucks and tries to make their own site famous with public money and loot everyone by changing 5digit $ for reviewing sites and decieving quality directories.
But iam not posting because i dont have him to give my and my brother's dir a bad name. you know he can blackmail me too
 
  #6  
Old 07-22-2007, 01:05 PM
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SEOmoz know about as much about directories as I know about link baiting, the list that they have provided of recommended ones does include V7N and a couple of other good ones, but most of them are ones for organizations or sites offering free stuff, all of which they seemed to be listed in (for some reason), one that they had on there was About.com, I couldn't even see a directory on there it just looked like an article site, others were just for very niche sites, basically they picked out a list of directories that it is impossible for a site like myne to get listed in, some of the ones they recommended were actually in databases and 100% non spiderable i.e. it would be impossible for a search engine to pick the links up, others were using re-directs, that made me laugh.

Last edited by David E; 07-22-2007 at 01:22 PM.
 
  #7  
Old 07-23-2007, 08:56 AM
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To me this is what matters--


Not to forget 30500 high quality and informative websites that visitors can find at Aviva.

I am really amazed at Rand Fishkin --his understanding of web directories or rather his lack of knowledge on them. The above screenshot is proof enough how Google views Aviva Directory -a leader and an authority in its Niche.

Mr. Rand is just making himself a laughing stock among serious web community

Since when are directories supposed to rank?
I always understand --directories are there to provide quality information to browsers and help webmasters rank their websites.

It is true - a single directory is not enough to rank a website --but some quality directories like Aviva and all those on my list are enough to rank any site
http://www.bestinternetresource.info...b-directories/

Most of the time I have to Google --as I am adding --quality informative sites to my directory for better user service.

I hardly see SEOMOZ rank for any term except theor own site title. How can some-one fool-around and charge $$$$$ from clients when he can't rank his own site

Last edited by jhnrang; 07-23-2007 at 09:00 AM.
 
  #8  
Old 07-23-2007, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhnrang View Post
I hardly see SEOMOZ rank for any term except theor own site title. How can some-one fool-around and charge $$$$$ from clients when he can't rank his own site
SEOmoz do rank for some awesome phrases like web 2.0.
 
  #9  
Old 07-22-2007, 12:52 PM
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http://www.idk.in/blogs/?p=55

lol John i think u were a bit late lol.... i got angry when i read his post and targetting aviva.... i wrote a response myself...


:p
 
  #10  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:16 PM
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Here is a very impressive EDU site that Aviva is on.

http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~dwils...s/general.html

I don't know how they got that link but it's impressive because I know the guy that runs that site (Dave Wilson) and he is very picky about who he gives a link to.
 
  #11  
Old 07-23-2007, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Overture is dead wrong.
No, they are only Overture numbers, though.

If you check Google, you'll see that "web 2.0" is a medium volume search term. It's a somewhat specialized term that the average person would not have interest in.
 
  #12  
Old 07-23-2007, 06:45 PM
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I agree it is a median term but it does receive good traffic probably peaking at times when there is an article in the news about web 2.0.
I was just pointing out that jhnrang was wrong about the overture numbers.
I almost never use overture anymore because it is out of date (I am pretty sure I read that the data is now over 6 months old but I might be wrong) and it is not accurate.
 
  #13  
Old 07-24-2007, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David E View Post
2nd for SEO blog, and there blog posts generally rank well high.
Dave - Just to emphasize my point-- I write an article titled " Google and Relevancy and Role of Modern Web Directories " -- few days back and my blog is fairly new.( not an authority site like SEOMOZ) -- but I am already on # 12 for the term "Role of Web Directories". I know Nobody would search for that term-- but not bad either for a new blog.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Role+...&start=10&sa=N
DC - http://72.14.235.104/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bestoptimized View Post
I was just pointing out that jhnrang was wrong about the overture numbers.
I almost never use overture anymore because it is out of date (I am pretty sure I read that the data is now over 6 months old but I might be wrong) and it is not accurate.
I can agree with you here. Overture figures are not correct and quite Old. But so are all other online tools. They can at best give an indication -- am I right?
 
  #14  
Old 07-23-2007, 07:52 PM
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Where the hell does he pull this criteria from? What basis does he have for stating this? Since when did a page ranking for the words in it's page titles mean something?

There are hundreds of thousands of pages out there, clean as a virgin honeypot, and enjoying some solid linkage, that do not necessarily rank for some words that are in the page titles.

Pretty sure somebody just pulled that criteria out of their ass.

Also note that the page title of the page in question is "Information - Aviva Web Directory", but to prove a non-point, the author searched Google for "information web directory", a phrase that is nothing similar to the page title.

And apply Rand's own criteria to the SEOMoz blog and it will show that the SEOmoz blog is not, um, worthwhile? A little confused here because I'm not sure what the aforementioned, pulled-from-the-ass criteria is supposed to show. But whatever it is supposed to show, it shows the SEOmoz blog in the negative.

"Search Engine Marketing News & Tips" is in the SEOmoz blog page title, but when I search for "news" they aren't in the top ten. Nor when I search for "tips" or when I search for "&", or even "Search Engine Marketing News".




Who said that Aviva Directory was targeting the phrase "financial forums information directory"??? Where the hell is this guy getting this crap? I mean, you want to piss on somebody else's work, fine, but do so honestly. Don't go making up keyword phrases and saying that Aviva is targeting them.


Can't even rank for the 5-6 word phrases in their title tags? They do rank for most of the searches I checked, but then I didn't alter the title tags. Somewhat dishonest article if you ask me, and by "somewhat" I mean "very".

Aviva has been on Digg's home page more than once, and the organic linkage it enjoys is nothing short of awesome.



Why should anybody check page strength? Does Google use page strength? No. Does Google give extra credit for .edu links? No. for .gov links? No. Do most professional SEO's know that most edu and gov links are actually on spam pages? I would hope so.



Again, "the engines might have less trust in them than in other types of sites"????? Any sources to back up this assumption?

Do these directories have value? I will have to go with a response that is 180 degrees from Rand Fishkin: YES.

http://www.v7n.com/forums/web-direct...ories-win.html

I regularly experiment with new sites and web directory submission, and I can say, YES, web directories with editorial integrity like Aviva do help you in the SERPs.

And I would suggest that you evaluate web directories with a much more useful criteria - one, that they rewrite titles and descriptions, and reject unworthy submissions.

And two, that they have high quality sites in their index that serve the public.
John what post did you read this on?
 
  #15  
Old 07-23-2007, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdd1984 View Post
John what post did you read this on?
< ebonics as per our affirmative action program > Dunt you play stupid, mutha****a. < / ebonics as per our affirmative action program >

You posted a reply to that post on SEOmoz brown-nosing the place and agreeing with everything there.
 
  #16  
Old 07-23-2007, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
< ebonics as per our affirmative action program > Dunt you play stupid, mutha****a. < / ebonics as per our affirmative action program >

You posted a reply to that post on SEOmoz brown-nosing the place and agreeing with everything there.
Nah I don't have no reason to brown nose any one, what I was cleary stating is that I do agree with Rand to a degree that some web directories could be a waste of money, but also read through there John I also stated there is quality web direcotires with hardly any outbound links, and that has high editorial status which is typically a yearly fee, where you can get good quality links from them.

I didn't even see the thing about aviva, I just watched the video, and moved on, but has nothing to do with me, anyways whats this below?

< ebonics as per our affirmative action program > Dunt you play stupid, mutha****a. < / ebonics as per our affirmative action program >
 
  #17  
Old 07-23-2007, 08:10 PM
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You don't know Ebonics? I'm thinking of getting the SEO blog translated into Ebonics to target that niche.
 
  #18  
Old 07-23-2007, 08:14 PM
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hmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
You don't know Ebonics? I'm thinking of getting the SEO blog translated into Ebonics to target that niche.
LOL, go for it.

Last edited by tdd1984; 07-23-2007 at 08:25 PM.
 
  #19  
Old 07-23-2007, 10:25 PM
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John - I'm suprised to see you taking an attack route on this, especially a personal one. The last few meetings and phone calls we've shared have always been so positive and friendly...

I think it's perfectly fair to disagree that rankings for certain phrases aren't a good indicator of link value - I think they are, other think they aren't and disagreeing on these topics seems fine. But, attacking me and SEOmoz seems out of character...

I also believe someone insinuated that we're charging for promoting directories somewhere. That's certainly not the case. We have a list of directories that we think are valuable (mostly college professors' lists, library resources, specific industry directories and that sort) but we sourced them privately and never requested a listing fee.

As for Aviva - I'm in direct email touch with Jeff, who runs Aviva and we're certainly not antagonistic. I'm actually trying to help him sort out why his site doesn't rank for terms and phrases that it obviously should be ranking for.

I'm hopeful that this debate could switch gears from a "how much does SEOmoz suck" to a "what criteria are valuable to determine if certain directories are worth submitting to/paying for" discussion.

Also - someone else noted that our page strength tool has been having some accuracy issues. We were running at about 60-65% accuracy (which is dismal, I admit) and are up to about 80-85% currently (which is still bad, but we're trying our best). The popularity of the tool is what's causing so many problems, as I discuss (and our lead developer details) here - http://www.seomoz.org/blog/whiteboar...i-had-a-hammer

Sorry I check in here so infrequently - feel free to email me if you've got specific concerns.
 
  #20  
Old 07-23-2007, 10:29 PM
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LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by randfish View Post
John - I'm suprised to see you taking an attack route on this, especially a personal one. The last few meetings and phone calls we've shared have always been so positive and friendly...

I think it's perfectly fair to disagree that rankings for certain phrases aren't a good indicator of link value - I think they are, other think they aren't and disagreeing on these topics seems fine. But, attacking me and SEOmoz seems out of character...

I also believe someone insinuated that we're charging for promoting directories somewhere. That's certainly not the case. We have a list of directories that we think are valuable (mostly college professors' lists, library resources, specific industry directories and that sort) but we sourced them privately and never requested a listing fee.

As for Aviva - I'm in direct email touch with Jeff, who runs Aviva and we're certainly not antagonistic. I'm actually trying to help him sort out why his site doesn't rank for terms and phrases that it obviously should be ranking for.

I'm hopeful that this debate could switch gears from a "how much does SEOmoz suck" to a "what criteria are valuable to determine if certain directories are worth submitting to/paying for" discussion.

Also - someone else noted that our page strength tool has been having some accuracy issues. We were running at about 60-65% accuracy (which is dismal, I admit) and are up to about 80-85% currently (which is still bad, but we're trying our best). The popularity of the tool is what's causing so many problems, as I discuss (and our lead developer details) here - http://www.seomoz.org/blog/whiteboar...i-had-a-hammer

Sorry I check in here so infrequently - feel free to email me if you've got specific concerns.
Welcome back Rand, long time no see.

Last edited by tdd1984; 07-23-2007 at 10:38 PM.
 
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