Why DMOZ is more important than ever

[cray]

And people have every right to complain as well, I have no time for the people who can't make a correct submission either but those who can shouldn't be punished for those who cannot. I wouldn't mind paying a fee just to get listed in good time or even just to know that you would eventually get listed. Directories can't keep blaming the users, otherwise nothing will ever go forward.

[PhilC]

Originally Posted by cray

Directories can't keep blaming the users, otherwise nothing will ever go forward.

And as such the users should complain about directories, when it's their mistake that delays their submission. DMOZ is improving. You can now look up on submission status in their forum. It will get better. Amen to that. :)

Originally Posted by cray

I have no time for the people who can't make a correct submission either but those who can shouldn't be punished for those who cannot.

Those who do correct submission, get listed quickly. Haven't you read surprise posts here saying that they got listed in 2 weeks?

Originally Posted by cray

I wouldn't mind paying a fee just to get listed in good time or even just to know that you would eventually get listed.

DMOZ's philosophy is different. If you want to pay, there are a lot of other commercial directories like Bluefind, Yahoo and looksmart.

[Ferre]

Hmm, I never had that problem with them. All the sites I have ever submitted are listed, usually within one or two months. The only remark I have on them is that they moved one site out of the correct catogory, where it was submitted and been for months, into another (wrong) one and the editor never replyed me when I questioned this.

[PhilC]

You should post your query on http://www.resource-zone.com/ ... its a forum run by select DMOZ editors ... you can find additional information on submitting sites, policies, and the status of sites suggested to the directory.

Note : Read the instructions carefully before posting.

[cray]

And as such the users should complain about directories, when it's their mistake that delays their submission. DMOZ is improving. You can now look up on submission status in their forum. It will get better. Amen to that.

Yes your right, those who are not submitting correctly shouldn't complain. I am submitting correctly and have every right to. On the forum I'm sure they copy/paste "Your site is awaiting editorial approval"

Those who do correct submission, get listed quickly. Haven't you read surprise posts here saying that they got listed in 2 weeks?

I think many would disagree with you. I have submitted tons of sites as far back as a year ago which were quality sites with good titles and descriptions, they have never appeared.

DMOZ's philosophy is different. If you want to pay, there are a lot of other commercial directories like Bluefind, Yahoo and looksmart.

uhhh yes, they are differnet, are you completely missing my point? I'm saying I would pay a fee so that I knew i would get listed rather than wait on editors who take years to even consider you.

[PhilC]

cray ... When I don't get a desired result, I question what I am doing wrong. The reason is, it's easier to change yourself to get the desired result than to berate and try to change a system or someone else.

If you've submitted tons of quality sites with good description and titles, and they haven't been accepted, than perhaps you need to ask yourself whether it is just you alone who thinks that the quality, description and title of the site was good enough.

Originally Posted by George Bernard Shaw

"People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them."

[cray]

I have enough experience to know that I can submit to DMOZ correctly thanks. I am well within my right to crisitse DMOZ for the reasons I have already oultined, if you want to kiss their arse all your life for providing crap service be my guest

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by sfxmystica

I just found out that Yahoo is using DMOZ's open directory project in it's search technology ... (remember that Yahoo still gives a lot more relevance to content and is still a very popular search engine ...)

sfxmystica, did DMOZ pay you or you spreading this propaganda for free? Yahoo's search technology weights links. Yippee. A DMOZ listing is not as important as you seem to think.

Yahoo places weight on many factors. DMOZ is one of those. So would be a link from www.suzuki-bikes.com or www.bluefind.com

You can rank well with or without a DMOZ listing. It's not that big of a deal.

Originally Posted by sfxmystica

For those who came late, Google too uses DMOZ to index sites. Infact, it is one of the surefire ways to get found by Google.

Funny. Google uses DMOZ, but then Google doesn't even index a lot of DMOZ pages? Seems Google doesn't think much of DMOZ after all. And after Google recently downgraded DMOZ by delinking the Google directory from their home page, it would appear Google has realized something a lot of webmasters have known for quite a while. Namely, that DMOZ has less interest in creating a quality index than they would have you believe. It's barely useful.

Originally Posted by sfxmystica

Remember that most sites get delayed or rejected because the submitters are too lazy to follow the guidelines.

Where did you hear that? Most sites get rejected because DMOZ editors are paranoid and believe that 99.9% of webmasters are spammers.


Let's review:

DMOZ has a great advantage. Google, Netscape, AOL, etc, etc. All these sites have given DMOZ great positioning, and because of it DMOZ gets plenty of volunteers and submissions. It could be a great directory, if they tried.

Instead DMOZ rejects a lot of capable editors. Paranoia. And some of their meta editors are self-obsessed, corrupt, and taking money from SEO professionals to list websites. (Yes, with the cashed checks to prove it.)

DMOZ editing is capable? Of what? I list websites in BlueFind even when they are my competition. Even when those websites have threads bashing me. Why? Because a web directory must serve the users, not the owners.

http://www.bluefind.com/dir/11972.php

See that category? It lists several forums run by people who don't necessarily like me. Some who make outright insulting statements in the forums listed there, in my web directory. Let's see if DMOZ does the same.


internet-marketing-research.net < Not listed
v7inc.com <- Not listed
hostdetective.net <- Not listed
bluefind.com <- Not listed


Editor shortage? Hardly. Just an unwillingness to review and list most websites, on the off-chance they may be owned by a "spammer".

[awall19]

Yahoo! does leverage DMOZ listings John. I thought it said it had an added effect on relevancy but now that I reread it, it states that it uses the data on partner sites to enhance the look of the results and does not really mention that it changes their algorithmic relevance

"Yahoo! leverages the Open Directory Project (ODP) to further improve the user experience on distribution partner sites. ODP title, description and category meta data is used to enhance Yahoo!'s relevant search results. "
http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/ps/wspi.jhtml

[PhilC]

Originally Posted by JohnScott

sfxmystica, did DMOZ pay you or you spreading this propaganda for free?

Ah, I wish ... life would be so much simpler ... More seriously, whether I am right or wrong, I am just standing up for my beliefs. No big deal ...

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Yahoo's search technology weights links. Yahoo places weight on many factors. DMOZ is one of those. So would be a link from www.suzuki-bikes.com or www.bluefind.com.

Search for 'web directory' on Yahoo. The number 1 site listed today [13 june 2004, India] is :

--> Amiga Web Directory - http://www.cucug.org/amiga.html

Your web directory has about 10 times more number of links than Amiga. Still, it is not there in the top 40.

Yes, perhaps yahoo does give a certain weightage to links but obviously that isn't enough for a good ranking, unlike say in Google.

That is what I pointed out in this thread. One other factor that Yahoo seems to weigh or consider when ranking a site is - is the site listed in DMOZ? I didn't pull this theory out of midair, Overture (part of yahoo now) states it.

Originally Posted by Overture

Yahoo! leverages the Open Directory Project (ODP) to further improve the user experience on distribution partner sites. ODP title, description and category meta data is used to enhance Yahoo!'s relevant search results.

[Source: http://www.content.overture.com/d/USm/specials/i/ ] ...

Originally Posted by JohnScott

You can rank well with or without a DMOZ listing. It's not that big of a deal.

I partly agree with you on this. Still, if you believe that DMOZ doesn't have any relevance today than why did you even make the effort to submit Bluefind.com to DMOZ ...

Originally Posted by JohnScott

I submitted BlueFind to DMOZ and it got in quick, but then they removed it. .... [Source: http://www.internet-marketing-resear...667.html#98512 ]

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Funny. Google uses DMOZ, but then Google doesn't even index a lot of DMOZ pages?

Originally Posted by Google Information for Webmasters -

What else can I do to get listed in Google?

If you are having difficulty getting listed in the Google index, you may want to consider submitting your site to Yahoo! or Netscape. You can submit to Yahoo! by visiting http://docs.yahoo.com/info/suggest/. You can submit your site to Netscape's Open Directory Project (DMOZ) by visiting www.dmoz.org. Once your site is included in either of these directories, Google will often index your site within six to eight weeks.

[Source: http://www.google.com/webmasters/1.html#B2 ]

Show me a site listed in DMOZ that hasn't been indexed by Google.

You should also visit http://directory.google.com - every site listed in DMOZ can be found here too ...

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Seems Google doesn't think much of DMOZ after all. And after Google recently downgraded DMOZ by delinking the Google directory from their home page, it would appear Google has realized something a lot of webmasters have known for quite a while.

Yes, Google indeed has realised what some web masters have known all along ... http://directory.google.com - At the bottom of every page in the directory, DMOZ is promoted and linked.

So if you want to get listed in Google Directory, get yourself listed in DMOZ. [Source: http://www.google.com/dirhelp.html#submit ]

Originally Posted by JohnScott

Where did you hear that? Most sites get rejected because DMOZ editors are paranoid and believe that 99.9% of webmasters are spammers.

I don't think dave conz an IMR member and a DMOZ editor is paranoid or crazy. So I am more inclined to take his words about DMOZ editors.

Originally Posted by JohnScott

DMOZ editing is capable? Of what? I list websites in BlueFind even when they are my competition. Even when those websites have threads bashing me. Why? Because a web directory must serve the users, not the owners.

Bluefind.com is a commercial directory. You charge $40 to get listed. If your competitors have asked you to list them, it's because they believe your directory will benefit them.

Originally Posted by JohnScott

See that category? It lists several forums run by people who don't necessarily like me. Some who make outright insulting statements in the forums listed there, in my web directory. Let's see if DMOZ does the same.


internet-marketing-research.net < Not listed
v7inc.com <- Not listed
hostdetective.net <- Not listed
bluefind.com <- Not listed

I already pointed this out to you John. DMOZ hasn't listed any of those sites run by you because of your campaign against them. That is why I think they removed Bluefind.com ...

Originally Posted by DMOZ

Bannable Offenses

"There have been instances over the years where webmasters and, IMHO, especially webmasters who are now ex-editors (fired for cause) didn't get their sites listed where/when/how they wanted - and they resorted, as a form of retaliation, to making unfounded accusations in forums (often anonymously) and/or sending hateful and/or threatening emails to various editors, sometimes with the return address spoofed and the IP showing to be from an anonymous proxy.

Sometimes the attacks have been more "manly" and direct, where the unhappy people do no hiding of any sort while saying things that they know aren't true.

It's hard to know exactly where to draw the line, but when the line is crossed, the harasser will find all of his or her known domains banned from ODP."

[Source: http://resource-zone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8012 ]

I have a certain belief about DMOZ. You have a certain belief about DMOZ. You stand up for your beliefs, I stand up for mine.

[PhilC]

Originally Posted by awall19

... I thought it said it had an added effect on relevancy but now that I reread it, it states that it uses the data on partner sites to enhance the look of the results and does not really mention that it changes their algorithmic relevance

I like the subtlety with which you seem to agree, disagree and twist the words! A really creative and intelligent mind ... (and thats a compliment, not sarcasm). Tell me, do you know cognitive behaviour therapy?

[John Scott]

I already pointed this out to you John. DMOZ hasn't listed any of those sites run by you because of your campaign against them. That is why I think they removed Bluefind.com ...

Um, no. Guessing = not good. From a meta editor:

http://www.internet-marketing-resear...hlight=#101215

But it is funny that you think that my criticism of the ODP constitues a "campaign", which should be a "bannable offense".

[John Scott]

Bluefind.com is a commercial directory. You charge $40 to get listed. If your competitors have asked you to list them, it's because they believe your directory will benefit them.

LOL! Do you seriously think that we only list websites who've paid for a listing? And do you think that some of those people would pay for review, knowing that I'm the owner? I listed those sites, free of charge, in the interest of the betterment of the directory.

Search for 'web directory' on Yahoo. The number 1 site listed today [13 june 2004, India] is :

--> Amiga Web Directory - http://www.cucug.org/amiga.html

Your web directory has about 10 times more number of links than Amiga. Still, it is not there in the top 40.

LOL! You just made an argument agaist DMOZ. That URL is not in the ODP - but it is listed in the Yahoo! Web Directory.

Yes, perhaps yahoo does give a certain weightage to links but obviously that isn't enough for a good ranking, unlike say in Google.

Yahoo puts a lot more weight on page elements such as keyword density. In fact, increasing keyword density by a couple instances will do you a lot more good in Yahoo than getting a DMOZ listing.

Yes, Google indeed has realised what some web masters have known all along ... http://directory.google.com - At the bottom of every page in the directory, DMOZ is promoted and linked.

Google is in the process of downgrading the Google Directory, and in so doing so, DMOZ. Google used to link to the Google Directory from their home page. That's gone now. Google used to link to the Google Directory categories from the SERPs, but that, too, is gone. I suspect that the Google Directory is an embarrassment to Google and will no longer exist before too long.

So if you want to get listed in Google Directory, get yourself listed in DMOZ. [Source: http://www.google.com/dirhelp.html#submit ]

As most of us know, that simply refers to Google's reliance on links to evaluate a site's worth. Google will not keep a URL in its index if it has no inbound links, but to newbie webmasters it's a lot easier just to say "Go get listed in some high pagerank directory because we'll probably be crawling it soon".

Show me a site listed in DMOZ that hasn't been indexed by Google.

I can do you better - I can show you page after page after page in DMOZ that isn't indexed. You should do your homework first, but if you don't see it let me know and I'll send you a few links.

[awall19]

Originally Posted by sfxmystica

I like the subtlety with which you seem to agree, disagree and twist the words! A really creative and intelligent mind ... (and thats a compliment, not sarcasm). Tell me, do you know cognitive behaviour therapy?

thanks for the compliment. I just read up on some cognitive behavior therapy...good stuff.

I actually know more than most about neurochemistry based on things I have done (some illegal), places I have been (some very horrible), and books I have read (a couple about the mind), but am by no means an expert yet. It is one of only a couple career paths that seem interesting to me right now though. If I do well enough with internet marketing I may get into that sort of stuff in due time.

[PhilC]

Remember, I once said that nobody wins in an argument. This is one of them ...

Let me give you something more serious to think about: Supposing someone wants to do business with you. What impression do you think he'll have of you?

This is what I got from this forum and from others:

Plus -
--> Smart and intelligent.
--> Good Business Sense.
--> Passionate.

Minus -
--> If your relationship with him sours, he'll try to destroy you.

For me, that single minus outweighs your pluses by a 100.

As a client, before taking a decision, this is what I would say to myself, 'If I become John's client and host with V7, I know he will go out of his way to provide great customer support. But what if something goes wrong between us? Will he still maintain a cordial relationship later on and not try to malign or damage my reputatiion?'

How did I get that negative impression about you? :

I just had to look at the 'EV1 hosting' articles and thread and the DMOZ articles and threads in this forum. You had a relationship with both and it soured.

The point isn't whether you are right or wrong. The point is about the approach. It conveys to me that negative aspect that I mentioned ...