Do you Validate Your Markup?

[Brian]

I make sure my sites are validated.

[Kalina]

Originally Posted by jonhenshaw

The DOCTYPE has nothing to do with site traffic or visibility (per se). It has everything to do with how your HTML and CSS is rendered. Changing the DOCTYPE can affect margins, padding and other elements on a web page. If you don't use a DOCTYPE, then the browser uses it's default DOCTYPE. Seasoned web designers know that the DOCTYPE is very important in order to ensure there design renders correctly on different browsers and browser versions.

Exactly. Thanks for putting into words what I was trying to express.
It's so important, but who am I.

John, we can get it all fixed eventually.

[LazyJim]

Originally Posted by jonhenshaw

Seasoned web designers know that the DOCTYPE is very important in order to ensure there design renders correctly on different browsers and browser versions.

I knew that - arg there's salt and pepper all over me!

[Nick]

To tell you the truth, I really don't care. All of my sites come out pretty nice in browsers so I am happy. It works for me

I just ran it on one of my cleanest coded sites and it said i had 61 errors because of a "task" command in an affiliate link.

Bogus

[Hon Daddy Dad]

I use css layouts but don't bother checking if it validates.... only if it works in the main windows and mac browsers.

[Kalina]

It just drives me nuts to see the "I don't care" comments. Anyway, please refer to this recent discussion, some good points in it, tableless design affects SERP?

For those who won't bother to read that, Thomas Holmes makes a good point,

I imagine its to do with well structured code being easier for the search engines to read. Less problematic. but this is broader than tableless code - its valid xhtml and css.

the search engines like well structured pages - that's why for example they like heading tags. Pages that are designed in this way are designed to be more future-proof. The stylesheet can be updated as styles change and the well structured information could be rendered for different media using different stylesheets.

I did read somewhere (can't remember where though) that this was one reason why blogs are well respected by the search engines. most blogs have valid xhtml and css. mine still needs a little work however

This too, http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-fr...irements.shtml

[Degenerate]

Having valid html and css is a must. I like doing it that was as it makes me feel better at having a job done well and it shouldn't take you that much more time if you practice doing it right in the first place that way you don't have so much to 'fix' later after doing a sloppy job.

It also makes it easier to share work on a project, especially on a larger project where a lot of a page is broken down into component areas with different people working on them. When you put all the components into one page the page should validate with no problem if you've all written compliant code.

Don't forget to validate your css as well as your html http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Colleen

It just drives me nuts to see the "I don't care" comments. Anyway, please refer to this recent discussion, some good points in it, tableless design affects SERP?

For those who won't bother to read that, Thomas Holmes makes a good point,

This too, http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-fr...irements.shtml

I would care if I knew anything about css and validation. But for now, only being active online for 7 months, I have a lot to learn!

[jjmac]

I generally use XHTML 1.0 strict in my designs, and I always run the validators, but there have been a few situations where I either did not fix all of the errors or I changed my doctype in order to maintain some useablitly or feature of the site.

The doctype definitely has an effect on the way the browser renders CSS in a page, and I find it much easier to write table-less layouts using a strict doctype. (and once you get used to coding in a strict doctype environment, you'll find that you want to punch people who use quirks mode, especially if they work with you and you have to change their code!)

Since you, as a web designer, have no control over browser defaults, you should at the very least declare a doctype to prevent some browser now or in the future declaring it for you and throwing your page out of whack.

If you, as a web designer, don't care then you're going to be far behind when the browsers start agreeing on a standard, because I think (or at least I'm hoping) that quirks mode will die some day. And with what I've read for the intentions of the new IE being much more standards compliant, I can see where that may happen some day.

p.s. The beta version of IE does not support standards in the way they have mentioned in some places that the final release will support, and I hope they follow through with their word!

[Kalina]

Great post, Josh, excellent points. Thanks for contributing.

Josh, you have an impressive portfolio! Really nice work there.

[jjmac]

Thanks Colleen You've got an impressive teddy on your site!

[Kalina]

LOL, thanks, we're about to get to bed.

[G10]

I would say it is good practice to validate code or at least understand why this should be done.

I suppose this primarily depends on what job you do. I mean, if you are a website designer etc, then it is definately good to do this as you will gain a better understanding of about what is going on.

If on the other hand, you have just created a site for family and friends or just a bit of a laugh etc, then there would be no need to pursue this.

[cashcannon]

most sites I'm doing got a shopping system that will generate errors either in XHTMl or in HTML 4. Hardly ever have a 100% validated site

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Colleen

Johan, do you mean using target="_blank" ? I have many clients who like to link to others sites that way so there's sometimes no way around it as they don't want to have people leave their page. But that's a very good reason not to. For my own sites I don't mind them being directed to a new site.

This is my favorite topic, still learning however.

I think you might would like to have a look at my tutorial here: http://www.webnauts.net/new-window.html

[Patilla]

I just removed the doctypes from all of my pages because none of them would validate in the w3.org validator. I only use straight HTML , cgi and js, but couldn't find a type to please them. Is there any tool that will validate a page for doctype for you?

[Kalina]

Originally Posted by Patilla

I just removed the doctypes from all of my pages because none of them would validate in the w3.org validator. I only use straight HTML , cgi and js, but couldn't find a type to please them. Is there any tool that will validate a page for doctype for you?

Not that I know of but I could review your page and see what the problem is, if you'd like.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by Colleen

It just drives me nuts to see the "I don't care" comments. Anyway, please refer to this recent discussion, some good points in it, tableless design affects SERP?

For those who won't bother to read that, Thomas Holmes makes a good point,

This too, http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-fr...irements.shtml

Originally Posted by The Quote You Quoted

the search engines like well structured pages - that's why for example they like heading tags. Pages that are designed in this way are designed to be more future-proof. The stylesheet can be updated as styles change and the well structured information could be rendered for different media using different stylesheets.

My problem with that quote is that everyone in this thread kinda glossed over the blazingly obvious irony that if you do a google search on a few high paying competitive keywords I've got $$ that says the majority of the top resulting pages wont validate.... Until you can explain that away the whole valid code = better serps argument wont fly with me.

Not to mention what was also mentioned in this thread. The serps sites themselves dont even validate!

Here's my conspiracy theory, read if you care...
Not to knock people who design for a living but... I think a huge reason and source of a lot of the money behind pushing web standards is that once you make it so valid code becomes important to all webmasters and SEOs (which i'm sorry but right now, it's not) you eliminate a HUGE chunk of competition for you as a designer.

Think about it... designers lose thousands (millions?) per year to high school kids with a little creative juice who can code well enough to make a site look good in most browsers. If you make it so they have to use valid code a lot of smalltime designers or designers that build sites for a hobby won't be able to do it themselves anymore. Then who will they turn to? You got it... pro designers with experience and training in valid code.

This will also generate new business because people like me who can't code valid anything but PHP would literally be at the mercy of design snobs with their "new" price scale since valid code became a necessity.

I also feel that if you don't work for an SE you shouldn't be posting anywhere what SEs like or don't like. Fact is you flat out don't know and would need to write "In my opinion" before everything you stated.

Again my post wasn't meant to offend. Just give a different perspective.

I guess the only way we can squash this permanently is to get a Matt Cutts type to weigh in on it

[jjmac]

While you make good points, more and more web sites a switching over to valid code. It's easier to code a valid site from the start than it is to re-code a non-valid site to be valid.

Valid code is not by far the main thing that affects your search engine ranking -- but it does affect it. It's about optimization. It's not a one stop shop to the number one slot, but when you're competing against hundreds of thousands of other web sites, every little bit helps.

I'm a web designer myself, (and yes, my portfolio site does validate) and I'm all for high school kids getting a design initiative and finding some work -- that's how I got started too. But as with any profession, there's a lot more that goes on behind the scenes than someone who's not involved will see on the surface.

Another (and bigger) problem in my opinion is not the high school kids who are doing design business, it's the people who caim they are a professional and still do not know the details about what they're doing. These people charge outrageous fees and the customers get little more than what they would get from a high school student -- in my opinion this is what is driving people to ask the question "What am I getting for all this extra money", similar to the questions you've posed here.

This is exactly why I've started doing site analysis before starting any work with a client. It outlines exactly what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and why my experience is worth what I charge. Then a person can make at least an informed decision as to whether they want to pay extra for the things I've outlined for them.