images off? Java Script off? Flash off?

Kymberly · 08-31-2007, 02:01 AM

Please help by leaving a reply on these questions as I need an overall consensus.

a) Do you feel it is still warranted to construct a website that caters to a screen 600 x 800

b) Do you feel that websites still need to be constructed taking the measure to maintain functionality if a browser is viewing with image loading switched off?
(most DW sites are made with images, if the images are off then there is no navigation unless consideration has been given for this)

c) Do you feel that websites still needed to be constructed taking measures to maintain functionality if JavaScript is turned off?

d) Do you feel that websites still needed to be constructed taking measures to maintain functionality if flash is turned off?

e) Due to the speed of technology I wonder whether these issues are still an important factor.. and if so, which ones do you feel are most important?

As a student studying IT I am confused by my teachings and the general consensus of the web design community.

I really need to get up to speed and I feel for myself and any other students out there, your opinions would clarify direction.

Thank you to all who can spare a few minutes.

chicgeek · 08-31-2007, 07:30 AM

Moved to usability.

bogs · 08-31-2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicgeek

Moved to usability.

I agree.. it really depends.. i use some tools if i want to block some script or images....

Costin Trifan · 08-31-2007, 04:51 PM

a) Absolutely not. Is still there someone who navigates the web using this res??

b) Of course. I mean you have to display something, don't you? But why would you make a navigation system based only on images and not on images + text?

c) This is questionable... I think that's up to that web developer who actually work for that site. He might have reason to maintain the site functionality or not.

d) Every web designer that uses flash on their sites is (or, at least, should be) "writing" it on the page and not including it from the start. There are users who doesn't know what flash is, or they think that flash is an evil thing !! (and this is 2007)

e) In my opinion, yes, they are. / That really depends on the nature of the website. If it's going to be a plain html site then you might not be needing any of the above but if the site will be a dynamic one, then you might need all the above things enables and even some more.

Thank you to all who can spare a few minutes.

It was my pleasure

**LazyJim** · 08-31-2007, 05:01 PM

The answer will always be yes, to try and do all those things, partly for compatibility today but also because you build using the primary core technology and can add value with the secondary technologies, building on top of those core.
For example CSS allows separation of formatting from content, starting with basic HTML and enhancing it with CSS, JavaScript should be used in a similar way so that the site is there and perfectly normal without JavaScript, and is better when JavaScript is enabled.

**LazyJim** · 08-31-2007, 05:11 PM

and technically the web is resolution independent - it should not matter what res a web site is viewed. Of course with today's heavily visual Web the way a web site looks is often important to the site owner/creator, so do try and find ways to make a layout that works in as many different resolutions as possible, (but its hard and if it don't go down to 800 very attractively then it's PROBABLY only a small percentage of your audience that will get a bad looking site - just make sure the site is still usable and it won't be a big sacrifice.

Obviously as always each project is different

Kymberly · 08-31-2007, 08:07 PM

Thanks for your response guys, I appreciate it no end.
And Costin Trifan, I have come across sites that have wonderful visual design but if the images are turned off there is no navigation.
I hope more people leave their thoughts here.
I appreciate the time you have taken to go into detail. It is all learning for me and goodness knows, I should have known this stuff by now.

Thanks guys very much!

Costin Trifan · 09-01-2007, 06:24 AM

Quote:

...I have come across sites that have wonderful visual design but if the images are turned off there is no navigation

that's why I said...

Quote:

...But why would you make a navigation system based only on images and not on images + text?

In this case, if you don't have images, at least you'll display the text...

But why someone would navigate without having the possibility of seeing images?? Is there someone??

Kymberly · 09-01-2007, 06:54 AM

Yes of course I understood your comment very clearly and am sorry if it seemed I was trying to make a point re seeing sites with visual design where the navigation was lost if images was turned off. I couldn't figure out a way of saying this politely without offending people that may or may not do this and quite possibly be members of this forum whom I would really not want to offend.
(I seem to have a case, quite innocently I can assure you, of foot in mouth...)
Also, I don't feel having images turned off for greater speed is so much of an issue these days but there seems to be quite a few people that feel strongly re this issue.
I just want to understand, more to the point, know for sure, which is right and which is wrong. It can get desperately confusing and I just wish there was a straight answer sometimes.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my questions. I really appreciate your input and it is really important to me so far as being able to put some of this behind me. It really does keep one chained down.

Costin Trifan · 09-01-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

I just want to understand, more to the point, know for sure, which is right and which is wrong. It can get desperately confusing and I just wish there was a straight answer sometimes

I wish that too, Kim, believe me. Your experience will give you the answers you're looking for now. It's not always that simple but it's not that difficult either. It all depends on you. Of course, there could be someone to show you the way (like your teachers at school) but they cannot walk that way with you nor do it for you. You have to find out for yourself what's at the end of that way...

That is, there are "patterns and practices" you can follow, but as a beginner it will not always be good for you to know what's that, because then you'll start focusing on achieving that goal, and as a beginner you'll fail...and you might not want to start over again, affraid of not failling again...
Learning needs time and work. A lot of work...

Please, don't take that as a step back nor understand me wrong (I'm not trying to say anything else than I'm actually saying - hope that make sense...)

I'm still learning, and I will always be learning because technology is constantly evolving, as you know...Everyday you discover something new, and beautiful...and that's the story of this way: you learn new things

As a note:
My sensei always used to say that: "What someone else's teaching you you'll quickly forget , but what you discover yourself you never forget."

As a #2 note, you may start searching for blogs and websites like those of Microsoft's employees and read them all. You'll find there a lot of information, use cases and web design techniques.

Kymberly · 09-02-2007, 06:44 AM

Hi there Costin Trifan.

Thanks for going into so much detail for me. You are right of course re learning lessons from experience. I appreciate your detailed response and the thought that went into it.

I am taking everything on board and hope one day to be up to speed so keeping up with technology, to some degree, will not be quite so overwhelming.

Thanks again for your effort.

**LazyJim** · 09-02-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Costin Trifan

But why someone would navigate without having the possibility of seeing images?? Is there someone??

lol you can't think of someone who surfs without seeing any images... or anything!
...?

Costin Trifan · 09-03-2007, 04:37 AM

there's no need to laugh...

---------
Well, how many web designers/developers actually design their sites for both blind people and normal people ?? Not many, unfortunately...

---------

And I was referring to those who can see, but turning off the images on purpose.

Why someone would do that? I mean I don't see the point here. It's 2007 and the websites have evolved from plain text to more graphics so why not see that website completely?? just because of a bad internet connection? How many people have bad internet connections? Are they going to be the best clients (visitors) of my site? Is it worth it developing a website for them only or not? How easy is to create such a site to be crossbrowser?? how much time it will take? How the future looks like? In that future there will be such thing as bad internet connection?

So, how many designers/developers design & implement their website thinking of these people (the blind ones and the ones with bad internet connection)??

So, if someone wants to visit a website (like microsoft.com) just as a plain text then he's back in the '80 (and I don't give a damn about those people, because it's their choice)...

my

**LazyJim** · 10-20-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Costin Trifan

And I was referring to those who can see, but turning off the images on purpose.

ah i see

well yeah it's not because ppl who see, browse with images turned off, it's because various ways of accessing the web require it, bots, people who cant see, people on mobile phones, people stuck with older technology, on saturated broadband links or restrictive company policies...

As some1 has said above - although most people have faster internet connections, their expectations for load speed has also increased. People will have less patience and there are more websites about, increasing the chance people will click 'back' and try the next search engine result quicker than they used to.
(Just trying to say it although it may not be critical that doesn't mean don't do try).

Costin Trifan · 10-21-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

well yeah it's not because ppl who see, browse with images turned off, it's because various ways of accessing the web require it, bots, people who cant see, people on mobile phones, people stuck with older technology, on saturated broadband links or restrictive company policies...

...and for various purposes are various frameworks to help developers in their tasks.

But nowadays, how many developers design their sites thinking about all people out there? I think the percentage is extremely small..

and that's because everyone is trying to have the most beautiful web site, or the most crawled (indexed) one and so on... this is a bad approach.

I didn't tried to see how great companies websites looks like when they're visited without javascript enabled, or without images and so on... (I think I don't even want to try that because I'll be very disappointed..)

Now, there is one more question: if the big guys don't think about everyone, why small guys (the rest of us) should? Just because we want? Just because we care? Where's the point?

"Time is money", every CEO of any web design company will tell you that. They don't care! They want to have the job done, that is a great & beautiful site for the client, no more, no less.

I really feel sorry for those with deficiencies, because, in a way, I can understand them.
But there are targeted web sites they visit, designed especially to help them, aren't there? So, if a company decides to launch a website, let's say for blind people, I'm sure they will optimize that site for an easy access and they'll provide a great accessibility too.

This is a great subject but, unfortunately, not many web design companies or freelancers will think too much about these guys...

Quote:

As some1 has said above - although most people have faster internet connections, their expectations for load speed has also increased. People will have less patience and there are more websites about, increasing the chance people will click 'back' and try the next search engine result quicker than they used to.

I fully agree with that. I have a decent internet connection and I still hit (sometimes) the X or the back button

Kymberly · 10-23-2007, 04:02 AM

Everything you guys have touched on here has been taken into account. It seems every time I get into something it is when there is an evolution taking place.

I wish my timing was better. When I enter into an endeavor I would like to be in the "oh, we hit the speed bumps and due to this have established this firm foundation of musts" or "This is a brand new experience and here are all the rules laid out with solid you aint gonna slip out boundaries.

My learning is similar to viewing the world while I am spinning. It never stays the same though. Am I ever going to get to where I am meant to end up? I am learning all this and it all changes. It's like finally understanding something, after months of learning, and then no one uses it anymore.

Just when I went and thought I was on track, had a plan and was heading somewhere on my journey through life my compass spins out of control.

Does this ever get any easier??

(sorry, must be the full moon??)

Dan Williamson · 10-24-2007, 04:35 PM

For people who have images or Javascript turned off it's not a problem as long as you don't develop image-reliant webpages, if I turn images off I want my webpage still to be structured the way I constructed it, i'm not relying on images to hold my template together.

cashcannon · 10-25-2007, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Costin Trifan

But nowadays, how many developers design their sites thinking about all people out there? I think the percentage is extremely small..

and that's because everyone is trying to have the most beautiful web site, or the most crawled (indexed) one and so on... this is a bad approach.

I agree that the websites that everyone will eventually go to like microsoft.com
should be available and viewable for everyone, but if your targeting a certain group like webmasters or webdesigners the boundries lower alot because they should have fast pcs with big screens and flash and javascript etc turned on.